M16 Designated Marksman question

[Roei Hazan]

Can someone explane to me once and for all:
why we give M4 to our marksman, and not M16. just like the US Army does.
Longer Barrel gives better velocity, flatter trajectory and better overall accuracy up to 500 meters.

[scelli]

Originally Posted by Roei Hazan

Can someone explane to me once and for all:
why we give M4 to our marksman, and not M16. just like the US Army does.
Longer Barrel gives better velocity, flatter trajectory and better overall accuracy up to 500 meters.

Just FYI: Those in the picture you've attached are US Marines (most likely FMF MEU), not US Army personnel. They are engaged in zeroing in their assigned weapons topside. This and PT are common occurrences on the operations deck while shipboard during sea duty.

[Roei Hazan]

I upload that picture for the M16 rifle picture, i don't care whose in it.
BTW what is the guy's name Scelli?

[scelli]

Originally Posted by Roei Hazan

I upload that picture for the M16 rifle picture, i don't care whose in it.
BTW what is the guy's name Scelli?

Yeah, I know you don't care...nor know. Why isn't that surprising on this board? However: I happened to care my Marine brethren are identified correctly and it matters a great deal to them and many American military personnel in other service branches as well who expect to be identified correctly in photographs.

Are we clear on that?

One more thing: I strongly advise you to not play cute as you're sometimes inclined to do in the past with other posters because you'll only end up the loser. Save it for the video-game honchos and wannabees who sometimes frequent this forum...not members like me. Experienced military veterans don't take kindly to such behavior and I definitely happen to be one of this breed.

[Roei Hazan]

I am not going to transatle now all the useless things that you just wrote...Peace.
back to my question..anyone?

[milluim]

Oh dear

And just to answer your stupid question we give an M4 or variant to riflemen etc who could need a combined ar with cqb capabilities marksmen would have a much more accurate rifle
like the l96 etc.

[Boanerges]

What good is it to have a long barreled weapon, if one has no concept of marksmenship?
The U.S. Army's designated marksmenship program is a joke! Their sniper program isn't what it use to be either. Compare an old sniper to what's being produced today, and you'll shake your head in disbelief.
More bullets down range is always better..... isn't it? What a bunch of dumb a***s!
The only U.S. Military Branch of Service that teaches and practices marksmenship is the U.S. Marines.
Designated Marksmen as used and defined by the U.S. Army is a nonsequitur.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by Boanerges

What good is it to have a long barreled weapon, if one has no concept of marksmenship?
The U.S. Army's designated marksmenship program is a joke! Their sniper program isn't what it use to be either. Compare an old sniper to what's being produced today, and you'll shake your head in disbelief.
More bullets down range is always better..... isn't it? What a bunch of dumb asses!
The only U.S. Military Branch of Service that teaches and practices marksmenship is the U.S. Marines.
Designated Marksmen as used and defined by the U.S. Army is a nonsequitur.

As a fan of the USMC and having spoken to my share of snipers from the USMC and US Army I would have to greatly differ. The ones I have spoken, veteran and active duty have been a wealth of knowledge and they are the reason I shoot anything you put into my hands as well as I do. I have been on a quest for learning to shoot accurately for years now and I'm always looking to learn some new technique to help me shoot a lil straighter than before.

These individuals have helped me put together a top notch Ghillie Suit, understand camo, concealment, general ideas of the sniper speciality, what they bring to the table in terms of giving an edge in combat and more. It has been my privilege to talk to all of them. They are VERY competent and far exceed the training of the WWII sniper veterans that came before them, when the sniper training was something at that time that did the job but needed much improvement.

There are reasons of which I will not say as to why. All of them fit into the idea that all snipers have in "getting outside the box". And that is all I'll say. :)

[Boanerges]

Archangel,
Never said anything about Marine Snipers.
Statement was directed towards the Army's "Designated Marksmen" concept. It's an answer in search of a question. There is no need for such an entity, if good old fashion marksmenship were still being taught, as is being done in the Marines.
You say you have contact with Army snipers, great. Do you really think they're going to be about the business of bad mouthing themselves?
Search around, and see what the Flea has to say about Army Marksmenship.
Old age gives one the ability to view a larger picture that can't be had by second hand accounts, one has to have lived it, tasted it, felt it.
Hopefully one day, in the far distant future, you'll look back on this and say "ya know that old cluck wasn't that far off base after all!"
Since you've said "that's all I have to say" or something to that effect, I say have a nice day.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by Boanerges

Archangel,
Never said anything about Marine Snipers.
Statement was directed towards the Army's "Designated Marksmen" concept. It's an answer in search of a question. There is no need for such an entity, if good old fashion marksmenship were still being taught, as is being done in the Marines.

You do realize that all of the armed forces are relatively trained the same so that joint branch ops run smoother as they all know more or less what each service member will do in the situation at hand.

Marksmanship comes down to the individual. I've read the book and effectively because of that, read the man's own words. You wanna know why Hathcock was one of the best? Because he was a man who wanted to be the best he could be. He didn't seek to be the best, but rather the best he could be. I find his drive similar to my own. I'm always looking to set a new personal best. If I could serve, you would likely find me at the range on my own time rather than a bar. I never was a big drinker anyway even though I do like an occasional shot or two of something or another.

Originally Posted by Boanerges

You say you have contact with Army snipers, great. Do you really think they're going to be about the business of bad mouthing themselves?
Search around, and see what the Flea has to say about Army Marksmenship.

Never mind the bad mouthing but when I have two snipers talking right in front of me, one from the Army, active duty and another who was and just got out of the Corps serving so long that the first sniper system he was ever trained on was the M40A1 and the last one being the M40A3 and they are both agreeing with different ideas of in-general tactics, ghillie concepts and training methods I think it's safe to say I wouldn't hesitate to trust my life to either one of those men. They knew their **** and it was obvious. Whoever trained them obviously did a damn fine job.

Originally Posted by Boanerges

Old age gives one the ability to view a larger picture that can't be had by second hand accounts, one has to have lived it, tasted it, felt it.
Hopefully one day, in the far distant future, you'll look back on this and say "ya know that old cluck wasn't that far off base after all!"
Since you've said "that's all I have to say" or something to that effect, I say have a nice day.

Older individuals also try to equate old age to having wisdom. I beg to differ, I was raised by an older married couple (mom is almost 60, dad is 65) and I can tell you old age and wisdom are not one and the same. And I have people I know 55 and up tell me that as well.

As for the part about "that's all I have to say", You have my apologies, as that was for the individual that was giving Scelli a hard time. That part was in no way directed at you.

[rafi]

at ease gentlemen !

Let's keep this an informative discussion of
differing methodology.

Rafi, speaking as Moderator

[Boanerges]

Archangel,
Can you interpolate?
It's not taught at the U.S.M.C. Scout Sniper School, nor any other military sniper school. It's not taught at the FBI Academy.
The Flea, an old Vietnam sniper, a number of years ago was invited to Ft. Benning for the annual sniper competition as an observer. After the competition was over the guests were invited to the firing line.
The flea picked up an 03-A4 Sniper Rifle(one of them old time ,antiquated weapons), applied his magic to the old 2.5 Weaver scope and started wacking the targets at the 1000yrd. mark. This sufficiently impressed the instructors and was asked how he accomplished that feat. He was then introduced to the head Army Instructor, who in turn engaged the Flea in a conversation on the new up coming Army Sniper Rifle and the Designated Marksmen Program and the need for follow up shot capabilities.
When the Sergeant had finished his spiel, the Flea's responce was; "So you're telling me you can't do what you're supposed to do with the first shot and you need a second, third and forth shot, correct? So you're telling me your boys can't read the wind correctly. So you're saying the Army's marksmenship abilities have become degraded over the years, correct?" A long pause went by and the forth coming answer was, yes!
P.S. Have you ever heard of Train Fire? That too is an old firearms program of instruction that is no loner taught because the student has to spend a week or more longer at the range. It was part of the basic training for the M-14.
As a result of that conversation the Flea was asked to go to the Army Sniper School to teach his method to the Sniper Instructors. A method that had once been taught there, but is no longer.
The invitation was to be that following spring. When spring arrived no call came. The Flea called the school. The head instructor stated that there were no instructors there for him to teach. They had been all sent to the sand box when the President declared the surge was to take place.
With the passage of time, the old ways have been forgotten pure and simple. If you don't believe me, don't, It's no skin off my teeth, remain ignorant! If how ever you want to gain some old timy knowlege, try contacting Vern Harrison at Centeral Virginia Tactical. Your eyes might be opened!

[Paparock]

Having been a former operator of an M21 and a Designated Marksman in an Airborne Infantry unit of the Texas Army National Guard the purpose of a semi-auto weapon is not for hitting your first target but being able to neutralize multiple targets in as rapid a manner as possible in support of your unit. A Sniper’s mission is completely different. Your weapon can be mission specific up to .50 Cal and .408 Cheytac. I never liked the 5.56mm round and I much prefer the 7.62mm due to my own person experience. Now days I still play with my Grandfather’s O3A3 and an auto-range targeting scope. It is extremely accurate however it is slower when engaging multiple targets.

[Boanerges]

Paparock,
I'm well ware of the purpose of the semi-auto weapon. My question is; why does it have to be in the hands of a "Designated Marksmen?"
If what you say is true, that the semi-auto is to allow the "neutralization of multiple targets in as rapid a manner as possible in support of your unit," why is it that your specific services are needed? Why isn't that same weapon in the hands of the standard line grunt? Why isn't he wacking the evil doers? Why you, the "designated Marksmen?"
If you say, the average grunt can't shoot as good as you or maybe he can't shoot worth a damn period, then you have to admit by default that there's a marksmenship problem in the U.S. Army's firearms program.
If a special person has to come to "support the unit" because the unit (of how many shooters?) can't shoot multiple times and take out the enemy, then there's a definite problem!!!!!!!!!
How many "Desigbated Marksmen" are assigned to a platoon, one, two? What happens to the platoon if in the first five seconds of the shootout the D/M's are taken out ? Those poor old crapy shooters are on their own aren't they? If you say they're not crapy shooters, then why the need for the D/M?

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by Boanerges

Archangel,
Can you interpolate?

Give me a practical application for it's usage and I can crack the formula and do it on a regular basis. I know the advanced math classes in high school were taught to do it but I never got the chance to attend that class because teachers don't want to learn to teach people like me. I'm more hands on among a few other different learning styles.

From the jist of it it sound like it's to find a perimeter inside the area of a 360 degree diameter (circle). However I'm sure there has to be a usage for it inside of that mathematical crap I just spat out.

Originally Posted by Boanerges

The Flea, an old Vietnam sniper, a number of years ago was invited to Ft. Benning for the annual sniper competition as an observer. After the competition was over the guests were invited to the firing line.
The flea picked up an 03-A4 Sniper Rifle(one of them old time ,antiquated weapons), applied his magic to the old 2.5 Weaver scope and started wacking the targets at the 1000yrd. mark.

He's not the first I've heard of to bag a target at 1000 yards. An Army sniper did it with the 1903A4 to advance a group of soldiers forward against a Japanese troop in WWII.

As for old time and antiquated, I have yet to find a bolt action 7.62/.308 bored rifle that cannot do serious damage regardless of what year it was made, my modernized Mosin Nagant 91/30 made in 1943 among them. I know why the vets preferred the 03A4 over the M1C and M1Ds, evil accuracy being why.

Car manufacturers also do not over-engineer things anymore which is why our cars are crap. Sometimes "just enough" isn't enough, but that is a different story.

Originally Posted by Paparock

Having been a former operator of an M21 and a Designated Marksman in an Airborne Infantry unit of the Texas Army National Guard the purpose of a semi-auto weapon is not for hitting your first target but being able to neutralize multiple targets in as rapid a manner as possible in support of your unit. A Sniper’s mission is completely different. Your weapon can be mission specific up to .50 Cal and .408 Cheytac. I never liked the 5.56mm round and I much prefer the 7.62mm due to my own person experience. Now days I still play with my Grandfather’s O3A3 and an auto-range targeting scope. It is extremely accurate however it is slower when engaging multiple targets.

Yes that's what I was told. A DM works or a squad level or more to dispatch enemies that might be smart enough to stay out of the 5.56x45s effective range. They sometimes have so many of them to deal with that they need the faster repeat shots. A sniper is generally inserted into an area where the bad guys are not exactly looking for trouble to begin with so repeat shots are not always needed as quickly so the bolt gets that job done better with higher accuracy because of less moving parts during operation and more fine tuning of parts on the rifle as well among other things.

[Boanerges]

Archangel,
Are you even familiar with the simple trig. functions necessary to conduct high angle firing solutions?

[Roei Hazan]

Originally Posted by milluim

Oh dear

And just to answer your stupid question we give an M4 or variant to riflemen etc who could need a combined ar with cqb capabilities marksmen would have a much more accurate rifle
like the l96 etc.

Admins i cant see any good reason why he speak to me like that, even tho he answer my "stupid" question.

[rafi]

Because of the good content around all the sniping (ok, I wentfor the pun) this thread will remain open - for now.

Forget at ease. I am now telling all of you to stand down!

If this thread closes there will be two week vacations attached to that decision.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by Boanerges

Archangel,
Are you even familiar with the simple trig. functions necessary to conduct high angle firing solutions?

Trig was also an advanced math class in high school. Like I said, they gave those classes to their "prized students" so I was unable to attend.

If you would break it down for me I'd be grateful for the information though. Trig would be useful though I could see that. It would make that 1000 yard shot a whole lot easier.

Does the Coriolis Effect veer a projectile to the right or left in the Western Hemisphere? If so by how much (7.62 as example). Nobody has bothered to explain that one to me just yet.

[Boanerges]

Archangel,
As a sniper, using 7.62 & 300 win. mag. I make shots out to 12000/13000yds. Not once has the coriolis affect been taken into account on my behalf. That however doesn't mean that it had no influence. If it did, I couldn't tell.
I've heard it mentioned on T.V. & in the movies, but there's a lot on the screen that's not factual.
In Vietnam, as a UH1C gunship pilot, I can say that I've shot hundred of thousands of rounds (7.62 rockets, 40MM grenades, .50 cal.) and never took it into account.