Why Do Israeli shoot their pistol like this ?

[rashal]

If you're talking about speed, practical shooting is the way to go.

Draw and cock it at abdomen hight, use the palm of your hand to grab the slide, punch it forward while adding the second hand and - boom.

In the end, shooters using both methods will do it with their hands extended forward. So a movement which involves getting your elbow above your head and than extending it forward will be much much longer than moving your elbow in a diagonal movement from 90 degrees down to 90 degrees parallel to the ground.

But than again, we're talking about a gunfight in general, and a gunfight is not sport.

The "Israeli" shooting style is based more principles than just speed or other things that might look on the paper. Why did I add the quotes in Israeli? Later in the post.

Look carefully here, at 1:34. (youtube guys deleted all the good videos so this is the only relevant one I've managed to find)

youtube(dot)com(slash)watch?v=ORUQjp5_dq4 **

You can see the officers stepping out, upright, standing straight, holding their handguns out (at the right one did). But as soon as shots are being fired at their direction, they drop low, base out, and start stepping back. How effective do you think their shots were? Two to the body one to the head? I hope it wasn't the good old spray and pray, because that would be terribly reckless in that environment.

So they teach these guys to shoot standing up straight, with an angle to the target, one hand extended and the other is bent. And what happens when they start feeling the heat of the bullets while they are ripping the air around them?

That is the natural human response to being in a situation where one's life might end instantly.

In most cases the cops will have the upper hand like at the end (0:52) of this video (basically target practice. note the rate of fire, even when the officers were not under immediate threat. Watch the one on the left, apparently he was stressed)

youtube(dot)com(slash)watch?v=n7At5RyV_yo **

And you can clearly see the one on the right in a firing position similar to what he was taught.

So when comparing most other methods to the "Israeli" one, you will find that all of them work well at the range, and even in most real life situations, but only one will work when you are under and immediate threat of death at close range (well, handgun range), and when you don't necesserely have the upper hand.

I wont go over the method in detail because it's irrelevant and not suitable for posting on the internet.

The reason why I don't like this method being associated with all Israelis is simply because there are good instructors, bad instructors, and instructors that are plain ****, but still take your money.

The good instructors will preform the technique well (flowing movements), and will be able to explain how to use it and when. They will also tell you that the method is more about the principles rather than the pure technique. I've met several great instructors, all working by slightly different technique, but with the same principles.
Crappy instructors will just shw you stiff, exaggerated movements (like getting your elbow up above your head), and make you into a crappy shooter and an average fighter, while ruining the reputation of the "Israeli" method.

Remember that everyone in Israel is either in the army, or was in the army. The amount of instructors is huge. Don't just trust anyone. No matter how exotic things look, they must still have some logic behind them. And if someone cant explain the logic behind it to you, it means that he's full of crap.


** - sorry for that, the forum wont allow me to post links.

[barak]

Originally Posted by rashal

If you're talking about speed, practical shooting is the way to go.

Draw and cock it at abdomen hight, use the palm of your hand to grab the slide, punch it forward while adding the second hand and - boom.

In the end, shooters using both methods will do it with their hands extended forward. So a movement which involves getting your elbow above your head and than extending it forward will be much much longer than moving your elbow in a diagonal movement from 90 degrees down to 90 degrees parallel to the ground.

But than again, we're talking about a gunfight in general, and a gunfight is not sport.

The "Israeli" shooting style is based more principles than just speed or other things that might look on the paper. Why did I add the quotes in Israeli? Later in the post.

Look carefully here, at 1:34. (youtube guys deleted all the good videos so this is the only relevant one I've managed to find)

youtube(dot)com(slash)watch?v=ORUQjp5_dq4 **

You can see the officers stepping out, upright, standing straight, holding their handguns out (at the right one did). But as soon as shots are being fired at their direction, they drop low, base out, and start stepping back. How effective do you think their shots were? Two to the body one to the head? I hope it wasn't the good old spray and pray, because that would be terribly reckless in that environment.

So they teach these guys to shoot standing up straight, with an angle to the target, one hand extended and the other is bent. And what happens when they start feeling the heat of the bullets while they are ripping the air around them?

That is the natural human response to being in a situation where one's life might end instantly.

In most cases the cops will have the upper hand like at the end (0:52) of this video (basically target practice. note the rate of fire, even when the officers were not under immediate threat. Watch the one on the left, apparently he was stressed)

youtube(dot)com(slash)watch?v=n7At5RyV_yo **

And you can clearly see the one on the right in a firing position similar to what he was taught.

So when comparing most other methods to the "Israeli" one, you will find that all of them work well at the range, and even in most real life situations, but only one will work when you are under and immediate threat of death at close range (well, handgun range), and when you don't necesserely have the upper hand.

I wont go over the method in detail because it's irrelevant and not suitable for posting on the internet.

The reason why I don't like this method being associated with all Israelis is simply because there are good instructors, bad instructors, and instructors that are plain ****, but still take your money.

The good instructors will preform the technique well (flowing movements), and will be able to explain how to use it and when. They will also tell you that the method is more about the principles rather than the pure technique. I've met several great instructors, all working by slightly different technique, but with the same principles.
Crappy instructors will just shw you stiff, exaggerated movements (like getting your elbow up above your head), and make you into a crappy shooter and an average fighter, while ruining the reputation of the "Israeli" method.

Remember that everyone in Israel is either in the army, or was in the army. The amount of instructors is huge. Don't just trust anyone. No matter how exotic things look, they must still have some logic behind them. And if someone cant explain the logic behind it to you, it means that he's full of crap.


** - sorry for that, the forum wont allow me to post links.

I couldent see any of the youtoob videos so I didn't get exacley what you were talking about but

I was taught by the same instructors that teach yamas and yamam police special forces. And they all teach the same thing speed point shooting get the first round out fast. They teach to cock like the man in the picture just not upside down but what ever is more comfertsble for you is what you use.you don't need to stick to what they do exacley as long as your still fast.

It was a theory that if you shoot from your side your less of a target but the idf figure out under stress it's unnatural so they use the streight in front aproach now.

[ishmael]

did anyone notice no magazine in well? I agree with golani he is playing.

[Islam just]

Originally Posted by ishmael

did anyone notice no magazine in well? I agree with golani he is playing.

I don't think ...........

[naftalim]

Only a select few outfits in the Army teach pistol shooting. The Security services teach what is called Yeri Instictivi, that is Instinctive shooting. This means, that the gun is with safety off, magazine loaded. When you need to fire, you draw and cock the gun while bringing it up to firing position using line of sight (not the sights) in the shortest time possible in one fluid motion. ( My hands were bloodied for days practicing this with the Browning FM 9 Millimeter many many years ago)

I have never seen any well taught professional do it the way you describe.

[eidderf]

Originally Posted by YoungJew91

Lol...that's worse than the "gangsta's" holding thier guns sideways...

Gangsters hold their gun sideways 'cause that how it comes in the box. lol

[michalos]

no one who really wants to make a good shot will hold his weapon like this, Except mafia perhaps...

[mroutdoorsman83]

Originally Posted by Copperhead

Exactly, that´s just the position for chambering the round (cocking). After that hand goes in the normal front position.. (one hand, two hands).

That is rather odd to myself...

As when holding the pistol in the primary hand during an administrative or tactical reload you drop or drop and take the magazine while inserting the new one with the pistol tilted toward the inside of your body(still level and facing down range or toward the target). Once that is done you grasp the side with your offhand and pull back never using the slide release. This method can also be used when initially chambering a round.

Well this is one of the primary methods taught everywhere I have been around the Military and Self-Defense community.

[Sgt. Cav]

Originally Posted by shelory

well i know the volunteer police "hit the streets" as you say it carrying an EMPTY chamber but that is because they cant be trusted with a gun with a bullet in its chamber. i dont know if the police do it that way.

Then they shouldn't be on the streets with a gun, if they cannot be trusted with a loaded and fully functional firearm.

[Sgt. Cav]

115VNYI,

Having carried a single action fire arm most of my adult life, I will tell you that they are safe to carry in condition one, it is called proper training and awarness.

I have seen as many if not more accidental discharges with DA pistols as the SA pistols.

The worst offenders for accidental discharge were those who were assigned DAO revolvers for duty.


It's called: KEEP YOUR FINGER OUT OF THE TRIGGER GUARD AND OFF THE TRIGGER!!!!!!
untill, YOU ARE READY TO ENGAGE THE TARGET!!!!

It works outstandingly well for all weapons.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cav

115VNYI,

Having carried a single action fire arm most of my adult life, I will tell you that they are safe to carry in condition one, it is called proper training and awarness.

I have seen as many if not more accidental discharges with DA pistols as the SA pistols.

The worst offenders for accidental discharge were those who were assigned DAO revolvers for duty.


It's called: KEEP YOUR FINGER OUT OF THE TRIGGER GUARD AND OFF THE TRIGGER!!!!!!
untill, YOU ARE READY TO ENGAGE THE TARGET!!!!

It works outstandingly well for all weapons.

Amen. I really enjoy the SA 1911 I have. Mainly because I know that the recoil is so much that to fire spray and pray would be pointless. I'm always in the frame of mind to never waste a shot. That and I know the 1911 is safe because of the dual safeties on it. All you gotta do is load the chamber and make absolutely sure the thumb safety is toggled up and the grip safety will take care of the rest. Gotta love a 1911 on Cocked and Locked. :)

I practice everytime that my finger is on the trigger guard (not in it) before I commit to fire. You'd think my dad with more trigger time at 60 something would know to have your finger on the trigger guard but he doesn't. I'm safer than he is. :)

[Emo Zipper]

I work at a Shooting Complex. So,,, I went to the Pistol Range and gave it a try. With my right elbow Skyward I pushed the pistol forward. released the slide and the round chambered perefectly. I only had to rotate my Hand and was ready to fire. It looks strange , but it works. It does keep the weapon pointed at the target. The pistol is a Browning HP , MkIII in 9mm....EZ

[Sgt. Cav]

Originally Posted by Archangel

Amen. I really enjoy the SA 1911 I have. Mainly because I know that the recoil is so much that to fire spray and pray would be pointless. I'm always in the frame of mind to never waste a shot. That and I know the 1911 is safe because of the dual safeties on it. All you gotta do is load the chamber and make absolutely sure the thumb safety is toggled up and the grip safety will take care of the rest. Gotta love a 1911 on Cocked and Locked. :)

I practice everytime that my finger is on the trigger guard (not in it) before I commit to fire. You'd think my dad with more trigger time at 60 something would know to have your finger on the trigger guard but he doesn't. I'm safer than he is. :)

It isn't that he is any less safe, and when He was trained the long finger wasn't taught, the long finger has only become standard in the last 20-25 years.

When I went through Basic and AIT, we were not taught the long finger.

It is something that I have had to drill into my mind, as it is jsut one more layer of safety, though the best safety of all, resides between your ears.

[David]

The sideways cant allows a user to get a better purchase on the slide of SMALLER semiautomatic pistols that are being carried in the more sensible C-3 mode. It's not really necessary to cant the pistol to the side when drawing and racking the slide on a full-size semiautomatic.

As for any presumed speed (or target acquisition) disadvantage in using C-3 over C-1 carry? Yes, even in the right hands, C-3 can be demonstrated to be slower; and, my hat's off to anyone who is able to actually perceive this .25 to .35 second, 'speed disadvantage' BEFORE the first 3 rounds strike the target's COM.

It needs to be remembered that most Americans replying to this thread have been victimized by a longstanding tradition of, 'Wild West' behaviors - Especially when it comes to using handguns. In my opinion, too many American handgun users prefer to act like, 'cowboys'. They seem to be suffering from some sort of irrational paranoia about being suddenly jumped and caught in a surprise ambush.

In order to deal with this popular self-defense obsession, most American gunmen (and especially the, 'under 30' crowd) prefer to constantly endanger: themselves, their comrades, the rest of the neighborhood, AND their own families by regularly exposing them all to the risks of C-1 carry.

The lives of highly trained CQB personnel ARE important; and, I've got 50 years of experience that say C-3 is the right way to go. Better for the operator, better for the operator's companions, and better for his family too. For the record: I am no longer able to count the number of published AD/ND's that have occurred with, 'ready-to-go pistols' like the modern Glock.

I've been doing this for a long time. If C-3 carry really makes a difference to someone in a CQB gunfight, then, I'll tell you what that person is really doing wrong - And, this mistake WILL get you killed: That pistolero has developed the very bad habit of waiting too long in order to, 'verify' the target and/or the target's intentions.

In my experience C-3 carry is NOT a real world liability. In order for a C-3 user to, 'fall behind the curve' a failure in personal perception (anticipation) MUST first occur. When it's done right by the time the target's brain perceives that the slide has been racked ...... he's already been hit, at least, twice; and the third one's on the way!

C-3 carry is NOT, 'old fashioned'. I'm old fashioned! The real question is, 'How' did I manage to survive long enough to get this way.