Magbach 7 based on whcih tank M-60 or Centurion?

[Little Rock]

Shalom.

It's me again looking for yet more information on a tank I want to do a 1/35 scale model of. This time it's the Magach 7 that I'm interested in.

What I need to know is which tank was the Magach 7 developed from? Was it the M-60 or the Centurion?

Did it use Merkava type tracks and if so which Merkava variant were they similar to, the Merkava II or Merkava III?

Also, just for curiosity. I have seen it referred to as both the Magach 7 and the Mag Ach 7. Which is the proper designation for this tank?

Thanks again from Little Rock

[Sgt. Cav]

Originally Posted by Little Rock

Shalom.

It's me again looking for yet more information on a tank I want to do a 1/35 scale model of. This time it's the Magach 7 that I'm interested in.

What I need to know is which tank was the Magach 7 developed from? Was it the M-60 or the Centurion?

Did it use Merkava type tracks and if so which Merkava variant were they similar to, the Merkava II or Merkava III?

Also, just for curiosity. I have seen it referred to as both the Magach 7 and the Mag Ach 7. Which is the proper designation for this tank?

Thanks again from Little Rock

Magach 3 and 5 are based upon M48 tanks; Magach 6 and 7 are based upon M60 ... Magach 7: M60 with 908 hp AVDS-1790-5A engine, additional passive armor.

[Little Rock]

Shalom.

Thanks for clearing that up.

It was the shots of the lower bow that had me wondering.

Cheers from Little Rock

[Sgt. Cav]

Originally Posted by Little Rock

Shalom.

Thanks for clearing that up.

It was the shots of the lower bow that had me wondering.

Cheers from Little Rock

Magach 7: M60 with 908 hp AVDS-1790-5A engine, additional passive armor, new fire control and Merkava-based tracks. Different configurations exist:

• Magach 7A (7 Alef): Fixed flat mantlet with gun "slots".
• Magach 7B (7 Bet): An interim model with armor configuration similar to the 7C. Apparently never reached production.
• Magach 7C (7 Gimel): Fixed angled mantlet with gun "slots".

[Little Rock]

Shalom.

Thanks again for the help and the great information on the sub-variants of the Magach 7; and thank you for the image.

How do you include the images in your posts? All I see when I try top do that is an icon that asks for a URL to the image. Isn't there any way to include an image that has been saved to my PC?

I have one of a Magach 7 that I'd like to share here. I had to increase the Gamma setting by 378 to lighten it enough to really see the driver's position. Now that I see that I can see that is an M-60 type hull and not a modified Centurion. I think it has Merkava type tracks on it too.

Thanks again and cheers from Peter

[tanks_alot]

The Magach 7's chasis is an M60 one, but the turret is of an M48.

[Little Rock]

Shalom.

Thanks for the replies.

Now I'm wondering this, why did the Israelis use the M-60 hull and the M-48 turret? Didn't the M-60 turret suit them? Things sure can get confusing can't they?

Cheers from Little Rock

[tanks_alot]

Well, i guess it had to do with reducing weight, as the M60 turret is much bigger and the idea was to armor up the Magach 7.

As it is with the M48 turret, because of the Magach 7's heavy weight, the engine dies and needs to be replaced quite often and the torsion bars snap under the pressure, so having an M60 turret would have made it even worse.

[Sgt. Cav]

Originally Posted by tanks_alot

Well, i guess it had to do with reducing weight, as the M60 turret is much bigger and the idea was to armor up the Magach 7.

As it is with the M48 turret, because of the Magach 7's heavy weight, the engine dies and needs to be replaced quite often and the torsion bars snap under the pressure, so having an M60 turret would have made it even worse.

Actually there is very little weight difference between the turrets of the M-48, M-60, and the M-60-A1, the main difference was in ammo load out and crew comfort, especally the loader, he was given more room to swing the main gun rounds out of the turret rack, and load them in the main gun or place them in the ready rack.
Spent 14 years on the M-60 series, the M-48-A5's used a lot of M-60 turtle turrents, as they were plentyful, cheep, and already set up for the 105mm gun and ammo.

[tanks_alot]

There is a difference of a few tons and when you are already on the edge as far as the tank can carry, it's a lot.

Anyway, that's what i think at least. the Magach 7 was not an upgraded version on the Magach 6. they are in fact two different branches in the development of the Magach, with the 6 being all M60 + reactive armor which is much lighter and the 7 with an M48 turret, but also with thick modular armor. of course there are other differences, but not relevant for this discussion.

I know about the difference of room between the M60 to the M48 turret, since i served on a Magach 7C and have been inside Magach 6, which uses an M60 turret and saw the difference.

[Little Rock]

Originally Posted by tanks_alot

There is a difference of a few tons and when you are already on the edge as far as the tank can carry, it's a lot.

Anyway, that's what i think at least. the Magach 7 was not an upgraded version on the Magach 6. they are in fact two different branches in the development of the Magach, with the 6 being all M60 + reactive armor which is much lighter and the 7 with an M48 turret, but also with thick modular armor. of course there are other differences, but not relevant for this discussion.

I know about the difference of room between the M60 to the M48 turret, since i served on a Magach 7C and have been inside Magach 6, which uses an M60 turret and saw the difference.

Shalom Tanks A Lot.

Thank you so much for the information, you too Sgt. Cav.

SO Tanks A Lot, you served on the Magach 7c? That is very fortuitous for me as that is the exact Magach variant I am wanting to create a kit-bashed model of in 1/35 scale styrene plastic.

I just found out that I'll need a set of Merkava II tracks for my Magach 7c model. Those should be interesting to find without having to buy a complete Merkava II kit. I wonder if I can buy just the tracks from Academy models? I have a Tamiya M-48 A3 model here that I can swipe the turret from and add to either a Tamiya M-60 A1 hull I have or to an AMT IDF M-60 A1 kit with Blazer armour Blazer armour not needed if using the other modular armour) and a 105 mm tank gun with the thermal sleeve. Therefore it looks like I'm just about set as far as the basic components go.

Do you know where I can acquire either drawings or photos on-line that would show me enough detail so I could figure out what the commander's cupola looked like and to build the modular armour, the turret basket and anything else you can think of on the Magach 7c that I'd need to add?

Any help will be greatly appreciated as I'm on a disability and can't afford a resin kit of the Magach 7c.

Thanks again from Little Rock

[Sgt. Cav]

Originally Posted by tanks_alot

There is a difference of a few tons and when you are already on the edge as far as the tank can carry, it's a lot.

Anyway, that's what i think at least. the Magach 7 was not an upgraded version on the Magach 6. they are in fact two different branches in the development of the Magach, with the 6 being all M60 + reactive armor which is much lighter and the 7 with an M48 turret, but also with thick modular armor. of course there are other differences, but not relevant for this discussion.

I know about the difference of room between the M60 to the M48 turret, since i served on a Magach 7C and have been inside Magach 6, which uses an M60 turret and saw the difference.

I used to have the weight numbers on the Turrets for the M-48, M-60, M-60-A1 and the difference is less than 1/4 a ton.

The M-48-A5 also cut weigth by going to the aluminum road wheels of the M-60 rather than the original steel wheels of the M-48, I also believe that the Israelis did the same with their M-48 series vehicles.

The standard M-60 weighed in at...50.7 ton...M-60-A1...52 ton...M-60-A3...54 ton, and with each weight increase the engines were up graded, along with the suspension.

The M-48 weight started in at 48.5 ton, the M-48-A1 increased that weight to 52 tons, M-48-A2 52.5 tons, M-48-A3 53.5 tons, and the M-48-A5 was the same weight as the M-60-A3 at 54 tons.

[Sgt. Cav]

The Magach 7 uses the same cupola as the Magach 6,





Magach 7c
Medium Tank

This upgrade includes thick slabs of angled passive armor added to the turret and hull, incorporates new enlarged basket, new pattern side skirts, new fire control, thermal sleeve for the 105mm gun and Merkava Mk I tracks, and IS-6 smoke generators. It also uses the same 908 hp AVDS 1790 5a diesel engine as the Merkava Mk I.

[Little Rock]

Shalom.

Once again I must extend my thanks!

My research has confirmed that it is the Magach 7c that I want to build. That shot of the Magach model really shows me what I wanted to know regarding the turret. I assume ( a very dangerous practice I know) that the armour on the turret is the same thickness throughout each piece top to bottom and that the inner surfaces of the armour conform to the curve of the turret? This is correct?

Cheers from Little Rock

[Sgt. Cav]

Originally Posted by Little Rock

Shalom.

Once again I must extend my thanks!

My research has confirmed that it is the Magach 7c that I want to build. That shot of the Magach model really shows me what I wanted to know regarding the turret. I assume ( a very dangerous practice I know) that the armour on the turret is the same thickness throughout each piece top to bottom and that the inner surfaces of the armour conform to the curve of the turret? This is correct?

Cheers from Little Rock

No, it is add on, and spaced, there are voids behind the armor facings, but it is all welded shut.

Some additional info;

Mobility

The weight of a baseline M60 is 49.7 tonnes. The Magach 7 variants with their additional armour are thought to be between 54 and 55 tonnes. This weight gain occurred even though Magach tracks were replaced by lighter and more durable all-steel ones, sourced from the Merkava, which saved 1.7 tonnes. Given the weight gain, attention had to be paid to maintaining mobility. The original 750hp power pack was replaced by a 908hp General Dynamics Land Systems Division AVDS 1790-5A diesel coupled with the same automatic transmission as used in the Merkava 1. In addition the Israeli firm Kinetics has carried out some major upgrades of the running gear. New shock absorbers have been fitted to roadwheels one, two and six, along with hydraulic bumpers to roadwheels one, two, five and six. New high-strength torsion bars are now standard. This combination has allowed roadwheel travel to increase from 180 to 200mm. Dissipated energy absorption per suspension station has risen by a very impressive 355 per cent.
In the real world these changes have given the Magach 7A and 7C greatly improved cross-country performance and acceleration when compared with the M60. Crew fatigue is reduced. As hull stability is enhanced, weapon accuracy is also improved.