The AK-47 in Israeli Service

[rafi]

I saw Rasar Banai last weekend. We didn't do Miluim together, but we were at the same induction base.

He still makes a great cup of coffee.

[GB_FXST]

Originally Posted by rafi

I saw Rasar Banai last weekend. We didn't do Miluim together, but we were at the same induction base.

He still makes a great cup of coffee.

Wonderful. Good to hear!

[Emo Zipper]

Originally Posted by scelli

Yo, Navy:

How many of those "souvenir" AK-47's are allowed to be brought back to The World on the Freedom Bird with you as war trophies when it's time for your unit to rotate out?

Enquiring minds want to know.

There is a machine gun ban in place.

[edit] Machine gun ban (The Hughes Amendment)

As debate for FOPA was in its final stages, Rep. William J. Hughes (D-N.J.) proposed an amendment to ban the civilian ownership or transfer of any fully-automatic weapon which was not registered by May 19, 1986. However, any such weapon manufactured and registered before the May 19 cutoff could still be legally owned and transferred by civilians.
Controversy exists regarding the validity of the amendment's inclusion into FOPA. The vote to include the amendment took place at night, when many of the lawmakers who would be opposed to its inclusion were not present. Also, the vote was an unrecorded voice vote, which some contend was inconclusive.[4]

As you can see there is no way any of our returning troops can bring back the AK-47 or it's spin-offs....EZ

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by Emo Zipper

There is a machine gun ban in place.

[edit] Machine gun ban (The Hughes Amendment)

As debate for FOPA was in its final stages, Rep. William J. Hughes (D-N.J.) proposed an amendment to ban the civilian ownership or transfer of any fully-automatic weapon which was not registered by May 19, 1986. However, any such weapon manufactured and registered before the May 19 cutoff could still be legally owned and transferred by civilians.
Controversy exists regarding the validity of the amendment's inclusion into FOPA. The vote to include the amendment took place at night, when many of the lawmakers who would be opposed to its inclusion were not present. Also, the vote was an unrecorded voice vote, which some contend was inconclusive.[4]

As you can see there is no way any of our returning troops can bring back the AK-47 or it's spin-offs....EZ

Wrong. Check BATFE import requirements on fire arms. The basic idea of it is to torch cut the receiver and barrel rendering it useless. From there you can ship it as a parts kit. You get a compatible US made AK barrel and get a US made receiver and proceed to build it to BATFE 922r specifications. You're done, you have an AK AND the BATFE is happy. Don't forget to check your headspace ;) happy building. :)

[scelli]

Originally Posted by Emo Zipper

There is a machine gun ban in place.

As you can see there is no way any of our returning troops can bring back the AK-47 or it's spin-offs....EZ

EZ,

I'm afraid you've quoted me a bit out of context. The quote utilized was my requesting Lone Rider (who is currently on active duty and was in the Iraqi theatre at the time) to confirm for me and the rest of the forum as well that the bringing back of certain so-called "war souvenirs" to CONUS (a perfect example being captured enemy weapons) by American troops when they rotate back to The World was illegal under the UCMJ. That ban has been in force for decades within the US armed forces.

By the way: The reason I asked that particular question had to do with someone making such a claim on this forum a while back.

[Paparock]

Scelli, I also can vouch that the US Army searched all my belongings before returning to CONUS to make sure I was not trying to bring back my own metal collapsing baton I had from working in Drug Suppression. A gentleman you served in the same unit I did brought back the idea and developed the modern day “Asp” used by many police in the USA. I met the man at an annual conference of Chiefs of Police. Standing at both for “Asp” batons while inspecting one I laughed that it was new to see the Japanese get an idea ripped off. It turned out the man I was talking to joined the same unit I was in about six months after I came back stateside for discharge. It seems the US Army was really concerned about one of my former unit bringing back one of our “special” batons and this was back in 1973.

[scelli]

Originally Posted by Paparock

Scelli, I also can vouch that the US Army searched all my belongings before returning to CONUS to make sure I was not trying to bring back my own metal collapsing baton I had from working in Drug Suppression. A gentleman you served in the same unit I did brought back the idea and developed the modern day “Asp” used by many police in the USA. I met the man at an annual conference of Chiefs of Police. Standing at both for “Asp” batons while inspecting one I laughed that it was new to see the Japanese get an idea ripped off. It turned out the man I was talking to joined the same unit I was in about six months after I came back stateside for discharge. It seems the US Army was really concerned about one of my former unit bringing back one of our “special” batons and this was back in 1973.

I once had to dump some rather grotesque photographs of dead VC taken by a combat photographer which were considered to be unacceptable. Could I've gotten away with cleverly stashing the pics somewhere on my person or in my gear in order to smuggle them into the US? Maybe, maybe not...but certainly wasn't willing to take the chance of being penciled off the Freedom Bird manifest just for a bunch of war pictures to pass around in a bar with my drinking buddies that I hadn't even taken myself.

Also, if I'm recalling correctly: During that particular series of exchanges within the thread in question, I didn't deny the ingenuity of the American GI to somehow manage one way or another to successfully smuggle war booty of any conceivable shape and form back to The World in the past. I simply stated the risk wasn't worth it.

It needs to be noted that banning war souvenirs wasn't always the case, especially during WWII. My uncle had incredible stuff down in his basement that he'd personally taken off of Iwo Jima and we used to play with it as kids for years. One item I very specifically recall was a huge sword which had belonged to a Japanese officer.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by scelli

One item I very specifically recall was a huge sword which had belonged to a Japanese officer.

A Katana. I have one. I hope it was never sold. It is literally the best designed sword in the entire world. A sword fight even with two opposing Katanas will end in mere seconds. It's made to end fights not endure them like a claymore, Rapier, cutlass, or saber.

A Katana even that old is priceless. Feels real light in your hands despite the length doesn't it? :) That's just one difference between a real one and a "wall hanger".

[scelli]

Originally Posted by Archangel

A Katana. I have one. I hope it was never sold. It is literally the best designed sword in the entire world. A sword fight even with two opposing Katanas will end in mere seconds. It's made to end fights not endure them like a claymore, Rapier, cutlass, or saber.

A Katana even that old is priceless. Feels real light in your hands despite the length doesn't it? :) That's just one difference between a real one and a "wall hanger".

My uncle died in December of 2007. Don't know what happened to the sword; I suspect my cousin has it and will keep the relic within the family, even though he himself deals in collectible items as a profession. I don't recall how it felt and the weight (we're talking over 40 years ago since I last saw the weapon), but even as a kid I still recall the very distinctive Japanese calligraphy (?) engraved on the scabbard.

[Sgt. Cav]

Originally Posted by Archangel

Wrong. Check BATFE import requirements on fire arms. The basic idea of it is to torch cut the receiver and barrel rendering it useless. From there you can ship it as a parts kit. You get a compatible US made AK barrel and get a US made receiver and proceed to build it to BATFE 922r specifications. You're done, you have an AK AND the BATFE is happy. Don't forget to check your headspace ;) happy building. :)

No, you can't reassemble that into a operational machine gun, legally, that I know as a fact, as I deal in Class III, and have friends who are also in the business.

We have discussed this on several ocassion, bemoning the price that class III weapons have skyrocketed to.

A 1921 Thompson, goes for $35,000

A MAC 11, is one of the cheaper weapons at $3,500

A HK 21 will only set you back $38,000

Th e UZI is a bargan at $6,000

A M16-A-1 is only $16,000

I bought my first M-16-A-1 for $900.00 tax stamp and all.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cav

No, you can't reassemble that into a operational machine gun, legally, that I know as a fact, as I deal in Class III, and have friends who are also in the business.

We have discussed this on several ocassion, bemoning the price that class III weapons have skyrocketed to.

A 1921 Thompson, goes for $35,000

A MAC 11, is one of the cheaper weapons at $3,500

A HK 21 will only set you back $38,000

Th e UZI is a bargan at $6,000

A M16-A-1 is only $16,000

I bought my first M-16-A-1 for $900.00 tax stamp and all.

No what I'm saying is in his post he ruled out EVERYTHING that even just LOOKED like an AK or a Galil. My point was you can have an AK or a Galil it just has to meet BATFE post May '86 receiver specifications. Which means no infamous 3rd hole and no DIAS unless it was legally registered either.

The point was you can get one. It just can't have a "fun mode". of co****, unless you move to Montana. :) (Bout time somebody stood up to those turds.)

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by scelli

My uncle died in December of 2007. Don't know what happened to the sword; I suspect my cousin has it and will keep the relic within the family, even though he himself deals in collectible items as a profession. I don't recall how it felt and the weight (we're talking over 40 years ago since I last saw the weapon), but even as a kid I still recall the very distinctive Japanese calligraphy (?) engraved on the scabbard.

That's sad. As for the "calligraphy" it is likely Kanji which is an alphabet based on Chinese languages like Cantonese and Mandarin (Mandarin being the most widely used Chinese language in China though there are many more than just those two.). It likely says something. Either the test results of testing the swords (If it's old enough, new ones of that era never had those cut into the scabbard), a quote of meaning and reverence toward battle, or maybe a name.

Most old ones were made out of folded Iron. They concentrated so much weight toward the hand that the tip was VERY light. It only feels slightly heavier in one hand than a Kabar. Each fold makes the blade stronger. New ones today are often made of steel. Aside from the "Wall hangers" that are forged, the new ones are folded steel and made by hand. They are and were folded anywhere from 4000 to 6000 times normally. It was considered part of a ceremony among Samurai to make one so it was more of a spiritual experience. There are two types of blade tips. One is used on knives today and in the western world it's sometimes called the Tanto blade. It looks more like the chisel tip on the end of a permanent marker. The other tip mostly seen is like a thin curved tip curving up toward the reverse side of the blade. I can imagine this was done in an effort to improve the efficiency of an impaling stroke.

Then there is the set. A Samurai had a full set and a rack to store them on. The arranged them from the largest on top going down to the bottom. The Tanto was on the bottom, the Wakizashi sword in the middle and the Katana on the top. The Wakizashi was just a smaller sword with the same idea as to why naval personell resorted to the Cutlass, Better to use in smaller spaces. The Tanto was the "Mini Katana" that obviously was better for last ditch efforts of defense, sneaking up on people, or extremely small places.


Ninja swords were based on the Samurai swords. They can usually be spotted as they are straight and that was for a specific reason as well but I can't remember why.

The testing is the grusome part. The ancient swords were "field tested" on corpses. The corpses ranged from pigs to even executed criminals. I guess they figured the criminals corpse wasn't worth the honor of leaving it intact with a respectable burial and it wasn't considered inhumane as the criminal was already dead and couldn't feel anything anyway. That's just a guess I dunno if that part is valid though. Sometimes the results were documented. This might have been documented on it's scabbard I don't remember. Basically though if it's blade is steel, it doesn't matter what the "results are" it's not old enough to be an authentic one from that time period.

The edge is also different. It's made into a Convex shape instead of a wedge design like most pocket knives. This aids it's cutting ability as it separates the material on contact in a more efficient and faster manner. This is why they were known to generally cut off limbs or even your head in one clean stroke. Very deadly. You may have to take another swing or two with a Claymore or a Cutlass but not a real Katana that's been properly sharpened.

I love mine though. It is sharp and I can weld it with just one hand. Very light and as modern ones have sometimes, mine even has a blood-groove in it.

[scelli]

I haven't seen that particular cousin since 2001 because the two of us live in entirely different regions of the US. However, we're in e-mail contact and I may just drop him a holiday greeting to ask if he knows what ever happened to that stuff. There were also a few "Rising Sun" flags that Japanese soldiers who were defending the island had signed as farewell messages to their families.

[Sgt. Cav]

Archangel, what we call a Tanto tip design is for armor pearcing, but is actually called a kissaki.

The Japanese nihontō was not made from iron but "Tamahagane" which consist of combinations of hard, high carbon steel and tough, low carbon steel.

In the most commonly method you takes a U-shaped piece of high-carbon steel (the outer edge) and then place a billet of low-carbon steel (the core) inside the U, then heating and hammering them into a single piece.

Some sword-makers use four different pieces (a core, an edge, and two side pieces), and some even use as many as five, by adding the Mune as a seperate piece.

The block of combined steel was heated and hammered over a period of several days, driving out the impurities, and then folded, that was done generally around 16 times, and then formed into the basic sword shape.

It was the quenching that gave the nihontō it curved shape and hamon, which could only be seen after polishing.

During the period of Japanese feudalism, the best grades of nihontō were tested against live prisoners set for execution, and rated by how many bodies they could cut through.

The term Katana is actually a borrowed word from the Portuguese (catana) a term for any large knife, but to be correct what you are talking about is the Nihontō, a advancement in design over the Chokutō, a straight sword form.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cav

Archangel, what we call a Tanto tip design is for armor pearcing, but is actually called a kissaki.

The Japanese nihontō was not made from iron but "Tamahagane" which consist of combinations of hard, high carbon steel and tough, low carbon steel.

In the most commonly method you takes a U-shaped piece of high-carbon steel (the outer edge) and then place a billet of low-carbon steel (the core) inside the U, then heating and hammering them into a single piece.

Some sword-makers use four different pieces (a core, an edge, and two side pieces), and some even use as many as five, by adding the Mune as a seperate piece.

The block of combined steel was heated and hammered over a period of several days, driving out the impurities, and then folded, that was done generally around 16 times, and then formed into the basic sword shape.

It was the quenching that gave the nihontō it curved shape and hamon, which could only be seen after polishing.

During the period of Japanese feudalism, the best grades of nihontō were tested against live prisoners set for execution, and rated by how many bodies they could cut through.

The term Katana is actually a borrowed word from the Portuguese (catana) a term for any large knife, but to be correct what you are talking about is the Nihontō, a advancement in design over the Chokutō, a straight sword form.

Yeah I knew some of my info wasn't right. Thanks for the correction there.

[Sgt. Cav]

Archangel, I have a Cold Steel Blade, along with a Shinwa for ramming around.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by Sgt. Cav

Archangel, I have a Cold Steel Blade, along with a Shinwa for ramming around.

Nice. I don't know who made mine but they did a great job. It's very light. But if I had to go into battle I'd take my Ontario Knife Company Tanto. It's built more like a Kabar.

[Sgt. Cav]

Originally Posted by Archangel

Nice. I don't know who made mine but they did a great job. It's very light. But if I had to go into battle I'd take my Ontario Knife Company Tanto. It's built more like a Kabar.

You misunderstand, the Shinwa is also a nihontō, the blade also is made from folded steel, it's just that is is about Half the Cost of My Cold Steel and I don't dread damaging it when screwing around like I would do with the Cold Steel nihontō.



Did some cutting last night, Tatami Mats, and the Cold Steel easily cut through two of them in a single stroke, there is a instructor there who is full trained in Kenjutsu, and He executed a Ryu Guruma cut and went through three, beautiful.

[Archangel]

That's a nice one Cav. It kind of reminds me of mine.

[Amram]

Originally Posted by rafi

Hey Everyone!

Authoritative answer:

In the late 70s a major round-up was initiated and bases were sealed and gone through to find unregistered weapons. The numbers were pretty staggering-how many of us had momentos.

Which is why a lot of us kep our souveniers at home!