What is the future and utility of light tanks

[dannytoro]

I was curious for an Israeli perspective on them. In particular given weight restrictions, geographic deploy-ability and cost. With realistic expectations.

[dannytoro]

.......Ok, let's define set of qualities this would have:

A Super Bainite Laminate armor giving complete frontal and forward side protection against RPG's and guns up to 57mm, basically render IFV mounted weapons useless, as well as much common owed AA artillery.

A fully amphibious hull capable of mounting assaults in ocean launch conditions, forsaking the need for ports.

A fully stabilized 76mm gun with full 45 to -10 elevation, allowing the opportunity for long range supporting fire. The gun being fitted with Oerlikon AHEAD technology to allow airburst attacks at ground targets and use against Helo's and some aircraft. Muzzle velocity with an Armor piercing Tunsten round would be 1000 m/s. Alternately an APDFS round and a high bc HE round of 825 m/s and the blast/frag round would be available.

A minimum cross country speed of 72kph, a top road speed of 96kph

A top weight of 23 metric tonnes

An integral launcher for TOW, primarily for work against heavy dug in targets

.....How useful would that be?..

[joejd12]

Originally Posted by dannytoro

.......Ok, let's define set of qualities this would have:

A Super Bainite Laminate armor giving complete frontal and forward side protection against RPG's and guns up to 57mm, basically render IFV mounted weapons useless, as well as much common owed AA artillery.

A fully amphibious hull capable of mounting assaults in ocean launch conditions, forsaking the need for ports.

A fully stabilized 76mm gun with full 45 to -10 elevation, allowing the opportunity for long range supporting fire. The gun being fitted with Oerlikon AHEAD technology to allow airburst attacks at ground targets and use against Helo's and some aircraft. Muzzle velocity with an Armor piercing Tunsten round would be 1000 m/s. Alternately an APDFS round and a high bc HE round of 825 m/s and the blast/frag round would be available.

A minimum cross country speed of 72kph, a top road speed of 96kph

A top weight of 23 metric tonnes

An integral launcher for TOW, primarily for work against heavy dug in targets

.....How useful would that be?..

not sure if what you describe is doable, but that sorta seems like a fantasy tank...

however, I must admit i also pondered the same question, because it made sense to me that if the Trophy system did indeed work, then maybe later iterations will mean that the tank can make its next evolution and tons of weight could be shed in favor of active protection systems...

[SpacemanSpiff]

Originally Posted by joejd12

. . . because it made sense to me that if the Trophy system did indeed work, then maybe later iterations will mean that the tank can make its next evolution and tons of weight could be shed in favor of active protection systems...

Excellent point.

I will admit that this is another subject where I am out of my area of expertise. But I do recall that the IDF had a reasonable number of AMX-13 light tanks in the 56 Suez campaign, and retired them afterwards due to their inadequate armor. Pretty clearly the IDF puts top priority on protection, and secondly on firepower, with mobility of lesser importance.

The US Army was once an advocate of air-droppable light tanks (the M-551 Sheridan) for what was expected to be a very fluid nuclear battlefield in Europe. But technical difficulties with this vehicle and its armament, plus reduced emphasis on tactical nuclear warfare, saw its retirement from all units except those of the 82nd Airborne.

I await responses from the members with field experience . . .

[dannytoro]

......Good points. In the Israeli experience, weight and size of the tanks is not much of a factor. Comparatively you have less geographic area incompatible with heavy armor. However for many countries, size and weight are a big problem, as is lack of infrastructure. For instance, when the M1 first came out, the Florida National guard found it more often stuck, or even crushing limestone caverns underneath the ground. For a while, they reverted back to their original tanks, until the got a better handle of where the could take their M1's.

As far as the ideas, Super Banitite is extremely cheap, and far superior to many current plate armors. The 76mm gun idea would be an update of the M32 76mm gun with Orelikon AHEAD technology, should be very doable. The Russians just deployed a very strong ocean going IFV, and should be acheivable. The road speeds should also be well within range of 600-750hp turbo diesels. Heck, the M-18 did close to that with 340hp engine. With a modern suspension, the high cross country speeds should be had.

I had not thought of Trophy, that would probably be a fine addition. Basically this tank would offer new mobility and area coverage to areas hard for armor to deploy in. You could dash up coast lines, cross over rivers and bays, swamps, diverting around heavy defense areas and attack at your pleasure. I thought since it's a fast moving and highly autonomous sort, having high elevation capability would be a nice plus. This would allow you the ability to frag troops dug in at long ranges with AHEAD shells, or use a long for caliber, high HE weight fill shell at lower velocity to match the firepower of a much larger gun, say to 100-105 level power. If you resort to driving bands, and a lower velocity of 825m/s, you still get excellent range, and not have overpressure on the barrel.

[dannytoro]

.....BTW, for folks that think light tanks are useless, check out the combat performance of the USA M18 Hellcat. Which destroyed dozens of Panthers and Tigers during the Battle of the Bulge. Including famously out sprinting the Germans and wiping out their Tiger Tank spearhead....Some of the Panther Hellcat battles were fought at extremely close distances, and the Panthers had a very hard time engaging the Hellcats......

[joejd12]

Originally Posted by dannytoro

.....BTW, for folks that think light tanks are useless, check out the combat performance of the USA M18 Hellcat. Which destroyed dozens of Panthers and Tigers during the Battle of the Bulge. Including famously out sprinting the Germans and wiping out their Tiger Tank spearhead....Some of the Panther Hellcat battles were fought at extremely close distances, and the Panthers had a very hard time engaging the Hellcats......

i remember watching a show about the hellcat... that tank's armor was so thin machine gun bullets would rip right through it apparently...

[Emo Zipper]

Originally Posted by dannytoro

I was curious for an Israeli perspective on them. In particular given weight restrictions, geographic deploy-ability and cost. With realistic expectations.

There will be a time when the evolution of the APC or Heavy Armor will have reached a point of no return. Heavier Armor/Bigger Gun. Mobility becomes a problem. I predict,,,,The small remote controlled and heavily armed armored vehicle will rule the battlefield. Inpervious to RPGs and equipted with motion sensitive targeting of weapons control systems. No bigger than a Go-cart. Like its airborne counterpart. Will destroy the enemy at ranges up to 500 meters. Capable of following mountain trails and lying in ambush , working in groups. Being able to sense the viberations made by walking humans. In constant communication with their controllers. Imagine the patrol that needs no sleep , no food no water. Can remain in position for days without giving away its position. Unapproachable , I lets the enemy get within a fixed distance and opens fire. It will have a claymore mine built into the front armor. With the ability to fake being damaged. Allowing the Enemy to think it has put it out of comission. Only to find out too late it isn't. ,,,,I could go on and on. But maybe someone will take the Idea and run with it.......EZ

[Archangel]

Light armored tanks have a future of sorts I think. When you look at the success of the Bradley which is not considered exactly as being a tank and the nature of what has happened in modern warfare it's become apparant that light armored tanks might be able to be used in the future if the armor is strong enough but light enough as mobile close-in artillery support for infantry engaged in urban terrain.

You can have a small crew protecting the light armor's six and outside the more tight in spaces of an inner city and engage at an instant without the lag in response you may have to deal with with air support getting to your location. They can be equipped with a 30mm main gun and break down walls for direct troop entry to seize a building, button up an essential position knocking out larger groups of hostiles before they can engage infantry positions making infantry less likely to get into a major firefight, have guided missiles for precision strikes on areas near civilian areas and the same missile might be able to engage more heavily armored targets such as MBTs like the Bradley's sometimes can do.

These things could make a hostile group seriously think twice about attacking your six and could roll easily with infantry from urban area to urban area. It would be interesting to see a light armored tank bring something like that to the table, freeing up the Bradley's to deal with delivering more troops to other areas of importance.