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Old 06-17-2010, 03:23 AM
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Default IDF training Jews in NY in tactical combat tecniques

I just saw this on Facebook. Seems like an amazing program.

"Kitat Konenut New York
New Yorks only Jewish Emergency Readiness
Squad will be holding our fifth anual 2-week
Israeli Counter-Terror Training Camp this summer (2010) in the Catskill Mountains of Upstate NY.
The dates will be Wednesday July 28th, through Sunday August 8th.

Training will include:

*Krav maga
*Edged weapons training
*Rifle training
*Scoped Rifle, long range shooting
*Non-Lethal weapons training
*Endurence marches
*CQB live fire training
*Shooting while under stress
*Airsoft and paintball simulation drills
*Overnight wilderness hikes
*Masa alunkot, 10-25 Kilometers
*Histaarut, prat, kita and chulia
*Community defense
*Identifying terrorist activity
*Coordination with law enforcement
*Identification of suspicious objects and how to deal with them

The course will also include discussions on:

*Understanding and confronting terrorism
*Fighting antisemitism
*History of the Zionist movement in Eretz Yisrael
*Know your rights- learn how every American can and must be legally armed and how to express the second amendment. Understand US gun laws and how they compare to other countries.

All training will be given by IDF combat soldiers. Cost of camp is $500 which includes all food, gear and ammo.

Instructor positions are available for those who have served in combat units of the IDF or US military or veterans and members of US law enforcement agencies.

To register for camp or for more information contact us.
****************************


And I found these 2 articles on this camp:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132551

And:
http://www.jpost.com/International/A...aspx?id=108902

This was a notice in Hebrew on Facebook:

אם אתה חייל משוחרר, ומעוניין לתרום לביטחון קהילות יהודיות בחו"ל תוך כדי הדרכת ציונות ואהבת ארץ ישראל, אז אנו רוצים אותך בתור מדריך במחנה של כיתת כוננות ניו יורק!

בקיץ המחנה יתארך במשך שבועיים בחודשים יולי-אוגוסט בהרי הקטסקילס של מדינת ניו יורק, ארבעים דקות נסיעה ממחנה "מושבה" של בני עקיבא בצפון פנסילבניה.

התוכנית תכלול:

*הדרכה בסיסית בנשק ארוך (עוזי, אמ-16, קלצ 'ניקוב, מאוזר, קרבין, וכו').
*קרב מגע
*לחימה בסכינים
*קורס צלפים
*הכשרה באקדחים
*לש"ב, זיגים
*תרגילי פרת, כתה, וחוליה
*מסע אלונקות
*שינה בשטח
*איתור פצצות וטיפול בחפצים חשודים
*לוט"ר
*איסוף מודיעין

התוכנית תכלול גם דיונים והדרכה ב:

* הבנת האידיאולוגיה מאחורי הטרור האיסלאמי.
* המלחמה באנטישמיות
* תולדות התנועה הציונית בארץ ישראל
*הבנת חוקי הנשק בארצות הברית, וכיצד כל יהודי אמריקאי יכול וחייב להחזיק בנשק להגנה עצמית

המחנה הוא דתי-ציוני. החניכים הם יהודים אמריקאים, דתיים וחילוניים, בגילאים 17-26.
המחנה הוא שומר שבת, כל האוכל כשר, ויהיו תפילות שלוש פעמים ביום (למי שרוצה).
המחנה נמצא שעתיים נסיעה מהעיר ניו יורק. אנו מספק הסעות הולך וחוזר מניו יורק למחנה לכל מי שיבוא.

חובה :
*אנגלית בסיסית
*שירות ביחידה קרבית בצה"ל
*ניסיון בהדרכת נוער
*ידע רחב של שימוש בנשק
*כושר גופני בסיסי

אם אתה מעוניין בחוויה אדירה ומספקת ורוצה לפגוש יהודים מכל העולם, אז הצטרף לשורותינו!

אני רכז צוות והדרכה ולכן אשמח לעזור
*********************

Sounds like my kind of camp!:) What do you guys think?
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:25 AM
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Wow that looks like a really great program. Wish I could be a part of it. As the sticker says "Fight Terror, Support Israel"

I'm truly thankful to see that maybe Israel hasn't given up on us just yet. I just hope our nation can elect leaders SOON that will make amends in whatever way we can for what our failure of a President has done to Israel. Our problems are proof in my beliefs that the promise God made to Abraham is alive and very much upheld and enforced by God. We would do well to seek to bless Israel once again.
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Old 06-17-2010, 12:49 PM
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Interesting training camp Ad Matay. Thanks for sharing the info! I removed the contact email for that organization, as we dont allow putting contact emails of organizations on our forum, unless it is with permisson of the admin. Those who are interested, can simply google the training camp.
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Old 06-17-2010, 12:58 PM
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Default I hope

the barbacue is also included
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Old 06-20-2010, 07:32 PM
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This kind of program is actually desperately needed in places like France, UK and South America where anti-semitism is rampant. I hope the idea spreads and takes off world-wide.
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Old 06-20-2010, 07:35 PM
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Wonderful, let's hope they will join the IDF through the Mahal program.
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Old 06-21-2010, 03:52 PM
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Sure, it would be great if more American Jews were encouraged by this to join Machal. However the really important point here is the fact that Jews outside of Israel are finally taking responsibility for their own security and training in counter-terror tactics.
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Old 06-22-2010, 11:02 AM
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Clarification to the major error in the title of this thread.

The Israel Defense Forces of the State of Israel, and the Government of the State of Israel have absolutely no connection to this program whatsoever. It would, in fact, be in violation of International law to do so.

The correct title should read that veterans of the IDF, eager to exploit the finances of those who live in America but who are unwilling to actually go to Israel and do something, can instead spend money of a fantasy camp for killing enemies of 60 years ago right here in the US.

The fantasy camp is a for profit effort owned and operated by veterans.
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Old 06-30-2010, 04:59 AM
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Rafi, you are correct that this program is not run by the IDF or Israeli govt in any way and is run by IDF veterans. The title is brief but the info explains exactly what this is all about.

However I am surprised by your negative impression of the program. I have no idea who you are but from your profile pic of the nagmash and your presence on this type of forum I would assume that you are a Zionist and someone who supports the right of Jews to defend themselves. If my assumptions are correct, you should be proud that IDF soldiers who fought to defend Israel against her enemies are now assisting American Jews to protect their communities, express the second amendment and learn about Zionism and Israel.
Also this program doesn't seem to be for profit. $400 for 2 weeks of training isn't exactly going to make anyone rich... I've seem training programs offered in Arizona and Utah by US veterans for $5000 or more. $400 seems barely enough to cover costs.
Your call this program a "fantasy camp", yet last I checked terrorist attacks against Jews and Americans are anything but a fantasy. Just ask the victims of 9/11, the Ft. Hood massacre, the Neo-Nazi attack on the DC Holocaust museum, the terror shooting at the Seattle JCC, the attack on the El Al counter in LA, Crown Heights Riots, Brooklyn Bridge shooting, or the attempted bombing of synagogues in Riverdale last year, etc. If those incidents are fantasy... well I guess this camp is too.

Personally I am glad that someone somewhere somehow is doing something to protect Jews and stand up to our very real enemies.
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:26 PM
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How disrespectful to respond by indicating you don't read other peoples posts.

My background with the original JDL, the Jewish Agency, time as a MemPey with Sayeret Egrophan, sherut keva,
and continued Miluim service in previous responses to you are all ignored. Even by your standards, I have earned the right
to have an opinion.

This camp was created for profit, and does not seem to target 18 to 21 year old Jews wanting to learn how to defend their people,
this camp targets those with money who can finally get back at the evil gentiles who stole their lunch money in 3rd grade.

It's frightening, having underqualified people with grudges handling deadly firearms. If you read my comments on gun ownership in Israel, I am consistent with that message there as well. Simply because a large portion of the world hates us is not a reason to give out weapons to whomever wants them.

Thank you for your service to Israel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ad Matay View Post
Rafi, you are correct that this program is not run by the IDF or Israeli govt in any way and is run by IDF veterans. The title is brief but the info explains exactly what this is all about.

However I am surprised by your negative impression of the program. I have no idea who you are but from your profile pic of the nagmash and your presence on this type of forum I would assume that you are a Zionist and someone who supports the right of Jews to defend themselves. If my assumptions are correct, you should be proud that IDF soldiers who fought to defend Israel against her enemies are now assisting American Jews to protect their communities, express the second amendment and learn about Zionism and Israel.
Also this program doesn't seem to be for profit. $400 for 2 weeks of training isn't exactly going to make anyone rich... I've seem training programs offered in Arizona and Utah by US veterans for $5000 or more. $400 seems barely enough to cover costs.
Your call this program a "fantasy camp", yet last I checked terrorist attacks against Jews and Americans are anything but a fantasy. Just ask the victims of 9/11, the Ft. Hood massacre, the Neo-Nazi attack on the DC Holocaust museum, the terror shooting at the Seattle JCC, the attack on the El Al counter in LA, Crown Heights Riots, Brooklyn Bridge shooting, or the attempted bombing of synagogues in Riverdale last year, etc. If those incidents are fantasy... well I guess this camp is too.

Personally I am glad that someone somewhere somehow is doing something to protect Jews and stand up to our very real enemies.

Last edited by rafi; 06-30-2010 at 05:47 PM..
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ad Matay View Post
Also this program doesn't seem to be for profit. $400 for 2 weeks of training isn't exactly going to make anyone rich....
Ad Matay,

No offense meant but while your enthusiasm is undoubtedly genuine and honorable, haven't we sort of hashed out the pros and cons of this program in another thread a few months ago at around the posting below and continuing for quite a few postings thereafter?

http://www.israelmilitary.net/showth...4928#post54928

You're right: $400 for 2 weeks probably won't make those offering the so-called "training" rich...but because of the caliber of "trainee" involved here, it could very well result in such individuals not only becoming a danger to themselves but others as well.

Rafi's points are excellent (particularly the lunch money illustration) and I for one agree entirely with his concerns.
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Old 06-30-2010, 06:19 PM
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Rafi, no disrespect was meant whatsoever. I don't go on this forum all that often and I hope you'll forgive if I haven't gotten to know everyone here personally. I have a lot of respect for your IDF service, thopugh i must honestly say I do not hold either the JDL or the Jewish Agency in any regard. The JDL has over time degenerated into a group of violent thugs that have no respect for the law and only seem to land themselves and others in jail with their foolish actions while tarnishing the good name of Jews who seek to defend themselves and express the second amendment.
The Jewish Agency during the time of the mandate turned Etzel and Lechi fighters in to the British, denied Betar members visas to palestine, and cooperated with the Nazis to save a few of their intellectual leftist cohorts at the expense of the Jewish masses of Europe. The leaders of the sochnut were responsible for the Altalena massacre and other horrible crimes against the Jewish resistance movements at the time.
So personally I wouldn't be too proud to belong to either group.
Yet whatever my personal opinions are in regards to those groups, yes you certainly are entitled to an opinion. I am not questioning this. I am simply asking why you are assuming the worst of a program that seems like a G-d sent at times like these. I am no expert on this program, and I can only base my knowlege on this from the articles I have read and what I have heard from others. Yet it seems to me that the point is to get unaffiliated American Jews to learn to defend their communities, buy guns legally for self defense, and get more involved in Israel and Zionism.
I don't know where you come up with these statements of yours that this targets wealthy Jews who want to take revenge on Gentiles who stole their money in third grade. Frankly that sounds like anti-semitic propaganda. Perhaps you didn't read the articles properly and only briefly skimmed over them. The most important quote I can take from one of them is "the agenda is to defend Jews where ever and when ever needed, and by using what ever means necessary". That seems like a noble mission statement to me and not one of a group just looking to suck money out of rich idiots just looking to play a good game of paintball.

And Scelli:
You claim the trainees are not of a high caliber. How do you know this? Are you personally aquainted with any of the trainees? And second what exactly qualifies in your opinion as "high caliber"?
The way I see it every Jew should have the right to own a weapon and train to use it responsibly. If there are Jews who have no previous military or self-defense background, and after this 2 week program they legally purchase a weapon and have the skills to defend themselves and their communities then I see it as a major success.
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Old 06-30-2010, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ad Matay View Post
And Scelli:
You claim the trainees are not of a high caliber. How do you know this? Are you personally aquainted with any of the trainees? And second what exactly qualifies in your opinion as "high caliber"?
The way I see it every Jew should have the right to own a weapon and train to use it responsibly. If there are Jews who have no previous military or self-defense background, and after this 2 week program they legally purchase a weapon and have the skills to defend themselves and their communities then I see it as a major success.
No two week program whatsoever in the civilian world is going to qualify individuals to defend themselves and their communities (except in the most rudimentary manner) regardless of who the trainers or the trainees are. I do mean NO program. It is an impossibility due to the constraints of training locations, time, money, legal issues and various other factors far too numerous to mention here. Once again I stress the fact that as well meaning as all this may sound, in my opinion it has serious flaws which eventually will lead to tragedy. Throughout many years of active duty, I trained numerous individuals in various combat and combat support skills and tell you from first-hand knowledge the procedure from beginning to ends is a slow, difficult and quite often painful process for the trainee and sometimes even for the trainers themselves.

Am I personally acquainted with the trainees? Nope. The pictures of those undergoing the so-called training speak volumes and definitely lend credence to both my and Rafi's concerns. Despite the apparently sincere desire of prior-service IDF personnel to assist their fellow Jews with this idea, I still stand by my conviction that some two week romp in the woods (however well-intentioned) will still not assuage those concerns.

You also misread what I wrote about caliber: no individual is of high caliber when they begin training or else they wouldn't need the training, would they? They are all equally uninitiated. That is exactly the purpose of the training: to turn out individuals of the highest caliber. I can speak from experience when saying there are absolutely no shortcuts to that end.
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Old 06-30-2010, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ad Matay View Post
The most important quote I can take from one of them is "the agenda is to defend Jews where ever and when ever needed, and by using what ever means necessary". That seems like a noble mission statement to me and not one of a group just looking to suck money out of rich idiots just looking to play a good game of paintball.
One more thing: the above so-called agenda you quote is exactly why these well-intentioned but inexperienced homegrown militiamen (or whatever they plan on calling themselves) will eventually get between a rock and a hard place with the authorities. Using whatever means necessary, huh? Now, this should be rather interesting to see and I'm sure the NYC District Attorney's office will also take notice as well.

With a "noble mission statement" like that, these rubber rifle rejects are just asking for a serious butt-kicking...and sadly enough the wake-up call most likely won't come from armed combat with those who we both consider to be the enemy but from left-wing organizations and media outlets that will gleefully use such publicity to their advantage by spewing out yet more inflammatory rhetoric towards Israel.
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Old 06-30-2010, 11:07 PM
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I can understand that the concept behind the program is trying to teach Jews to defend themselves, which is quite an admiral goal. Yet, like previously stated, this is not the best way to do it. If these IDF veterans truly want to help Jews learn to defend themselves, they should create an organization to encourage and provide Jews with effective training programs and professional firearm agencies. I am not trained in any methods of self defense, yet even I can tell that two weeks is not ample time to safely and effectively go over all those subjects listed. Long term, safe and profesionaly regulated programs are required. This two week program might only have the negative effect of encouraging Jews to feel more prepared to take on a challenge they might not be ready for, and that might very well get them injured. Krav Maga, I know for a fact can't be tought in two weeks. Teaching a person a weaks long method of Krav Maga may only encourage them to get into a fight they're ill-prepared for.
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Old 07-01-2010, 12:25 AM
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Scelli,
I must say that I agree that 2 weeks of intense training is not necessarily enough to turn a novice into a professional. I did 6 months of IDF basic training + another 2 1/2 years serving in the West Bank and I still don't consider myself a professional by any means. There is always more anyone learn in terms of training and readiness. However I do believe if taught by the right instructors, in 2 weeks a committed individual can become properly aquainted with safe firearms handling and basic self defense techniques. At least to the point where they would be qualified to own their own gun at home and be able to defend themselves with it if need be. I would certainly hope that anyone attending this program continues to train weekly afterwards and continues to build up their self defense skills. I don't think every Jew needs to be a commando, but I do believe it is essential that average people (not just ex military) do learn basic self defense and purchase their own firearms. I know I encourage people in my community to do this constantly.
And in regards to legal issues: obviously if people obey the laws, purchase legal guns and behave in a sane manner there is no legal problem what so ever. The problem is with JDL types who think they are above the law and beat people up and carry unlicensed handguns. Not with legally armed citizens who wish to protect their families and communities. The supreme court just this week reaffirmed the individual right to own a gun for self-defense so this is not a negotiable issue. There are millions of legally armed law abiding Americans out there. I think it is about time Jews starting following suit.
True, liberals may dislike this idea. But who really cares what they think;) What matters is the law, and the law is on the side of gun owners.
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Old 07-01-2010, 01:00 AM
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No problems with the majority of what you've expressed in your latest posting. Just don't want to see any more Bernie Goetz cases which routinely ignite opponents of allowing Americans the right to own guns. Not that I give two doo-doos what those bozos think, but why offer them a platform free of charge to voice their nonsense unless we absolutely have to?

Must admit I really didn't have too much of a problem with Goetz (who apparently was a genuine nerd personified) ridding NYC of some riff-raff. Of course, that's the very same reason I and anyone else with a modicum of honesty (particularly those of us who are native New Yorkers) readily admitted cheering Charles Bronson on in the Death Wish movies despite horrific stares from a few liberals I'm forced to associate with both within society in general and my immediate family in particular.
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Old 07-01-2010, 01:09 AM
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Let's speak for a minute to the individuals getting the training.
Right now, the only prescreening I see is the ability to write a check or
have a credit card. Unfortunately, this does not seem to be an adequate threshold for service.

The IDF has advance screening by a family physician, which then only acts as a recommendation to the IDF physician who confirms or rejects the initial evaluation. Once into basic training, your weapon is not issued on the first day, and when it is issued, it is without ammunition. Plenty of time to screen out those who shouldn't be there.

I think it is incredibly naive to believe that people are going to this camp for something other than to shoot. I love to be on the range myself. During my month in service one officer was shot in the back of the head and died of the gunshot wound from an innocent raw recruit who thought the gun was jammed but wasn't. The second incident, ten feet in front of me occured when a platoon seargent made the same mistake a few days later. Other than some ruined pants, all was OK that time. And these happened under the most controlled of circumstances.

The JDL under R. Kahane (again - I stated I made aliyah with him) was not the animal it is today. The Jewish Agency is just what it is. Sorta like Israel - Ain Li Yisrael Acheret - I have no other Israel. The Salute to Israel Parade was a greatplace to work.

I'm a big boy and I know what the world holds for me and my people. Like you, I chose a place to make my contribution. I can only hope others maintain my good name.
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Old 07-01-2010, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ad Matay View Post
I don't know where you come up with these statements of yours that this targets wealthy Jews who want to take revenge on Gentiles who stole their money in third grade.
I believe that was humor.
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Originally Posted by Familyguydude View Post
I can tell that two weeks is not ample time to safely and effectively go over all those subjects listed. Long term, safe and profesionaly regulated programs are required.
Agree.

I'm no expert at any of this stuff. But a general rule of thumb is that it takes five years to become proficient at most subjects. (Obviously, some subjects more, some less.)
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Originally Posted by scelli View Post
Must admit I really didn't have too much of a problem with Goetz (who apparently was a genuine nerd personified) ridding NYC of some riff-raff.
Yeah, there was a lot of sympathy for Bernie.
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Old 07-01-2010, 01:13 AM
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Default Ad Matay, let's not turn this into a nasty thing please.

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Originally Posted by Ad Matay View Post
I have no idea who you are but from your profile pic of the nagmash and your presence on this type of forum.... .
rafi is also a super moderator on this forum, and that alone means he isnt just a guy on the forum.

While I love the idea of militias protecting good causes, rafi has explained how these guys may not have been so useful to defending Israel.

And also, what rafi was mentioning, was that he has answered other posts to you, and you come up with , who are you? Please Ad Matay that is pretty disrespectful.
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