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  #1  
Old 09-30-2007, 08:49 PM
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Default The REAL Islam Revealed

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Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6985) Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger as saying:
The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.
http://israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=2617
http://israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=3410
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  #2  
Old 10-04-2007, 12:03 AM
Salah_Al_deen Salah_Al_deen is offline
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Your post was edited as it was a total violation of the rules of the forum. Post another such personal attack Salah Al deen and it will be your last on this forum. You can disagree but personal attacks and your language will not be tolerated.

Paparock / Moderator

Last edited by Paparock; 10-04-2007 at 02:34 AM..
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Old 10-04-2007, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salah_Al_deen View Post
Your post was edited as it was a total violation of the rules of the forum. Post another such personal attack Salah Al deen and it will be your last on this forum. You can disagree but personal attacks and your language will not be tolerated.

Paparock / Moderator
Come on Paparock it's not first time I got insults and threats from fallowers of "the religion of peace", he's at least honest not tryng to pull out taqiya on on us; he deserves to be heard especialy when he's proving the point of this video.
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Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6985) Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger as saying:
The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.
http://israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=2617
http://israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=3410
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  #4  
Old 10-05-2007, 11:52 PM
Salah_Al_deen Salah_Al_deen is offline
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Paparock, what about Ultra requete?
why does he allowed to attack another members' religions? we respect all the religions except the fetishist whom worship another god except "Allah"
god of all the world who create all the the creatures in the world and you know that very well.
We believe in all of "Allah"'s prophets -peace upon them- but you are not!!
u know that Mohammed peace upon him is a messenger of Allah exactly like Jesus and Moses -peace upon them all- and that has written in the Bible and the Gospel but u still and will still gainsay that to the last hour except few of u
no body can force u to be muslim or to believe in the truth except Allah he does any thing he wants

but If you are trying to hurt Islam or Muslims by these lies and fools, take this advise:
"dont tire out your self because u'll never change truth and u'll never hurt the Muslims or Prophet Mohammed peaCE upon him whatever u say and remember that there is A god watching u and he Knows every thing u do and he controls every thing in the world , and remember that there is a punishment In the other life and all that are written in the bible "
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Old 10-06-2007, 02:27 AM
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Default Allah vs the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salah_Al_deen View Post
Paparock, what about Ultra requete?
why does he allowed to attack another members' religions? we respect all the religions except the fetishist whom worship another god except "Allah"
god of all the world who create all the the creatures in the world and you know that very well.
We believe in all of "Allah"'s prophets -peace upon them- but you are not!!
u know that Mohammed peace upon him is a messenger of Allah exactly like Jesus and Moses -peace upon them all- and that has written in the Bible and the Gospel but u still and will still gainsay that to the last hour except few of u
no body can force u to be muslim or to believe in the truth except Allah he does any thing he wants

but If you are trying to hurt Islam or Muslims by these lies and fools, take this advise:
"dont tire out your self because u'll never change truth and u'll never hurt the Muslims or Prophet Mohammed peaCE upon him whatever u say and remember that there is A god watching u and he Knows every thing u do and he controls every thing in the world , and remember that there is a punishment In the other life and all that are written in the bible "

Fist off you nor Muslims nor Islam "respect" other religions as evidenced by your language, Muslims language, and Islams texts.

Allah is not the same God as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob so I and millions more reject the God Muhammad created. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob wrote the Holy Scriptures. I have studied Islam and found it most lacking. It is but my opinion that Muhammad was correct in his original fears when he feared he was being deceived by a demon as he himself related in both the Quran and Hadith at his first revelations. While he later changed his view from this I believe he was correct for many reasons some of which are that it was his renderings of the Hebrew Texts that were in error and not those as passed down through the Judaic traditions as they are verified by the Dead Sea Scrolls and by all historical records from all historians of the nations surrounding and part of the Middle East while refuting Muhammad’s renditions.

Muhammad said Jesus was a prophet yet all of the verifiable teachings left by the historical Jesus (Yeshua) are denied by Islam today and they refute the very teachings of Muhammad. Have you ever read any of these teachings? Why are not they included in the Quran and why do the teachings of Jesus counter what Muhammad taught yet Muhammad said Jesus is a true Prophet?

Truly there is a God watching over all the Earth and he gave his word in Holy Scripture. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob keeps his word because it is HIS WORD and not because of the worthiness of the one the word is given to. The God called Allah described by Muhammad changes his word from people to people and nation to nation as easily as a man would change his cloak from the beginning of the Quran to the end by Muhammad’s own words but the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob stands by his word through eternity as a mountain that cannot be moved.

Genesis 17:18-22
18“And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before the! 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. “
21“But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.’
22“And he left off talking with him and God went up from Abraham.”

Since the day Israel was reborn into the Middle East where the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob promised them their land; Islam and Allah have tried to destroy Israel yet not only has this tiny little nation of a few million Jews survived but it has prospered.The land has become a garden where there were once swamps and desert. Factories, prosperity, shops, and jobs have replaced grinding poverty as the Jews worked to renew the land. It sounds to me like the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is keeping his word when "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his seed after him."

If the Palestinians had worked the land (or still would) as the Jewish immigrant have and built factories and infrastructure to improve where they live rather than their leaders funding terrorism and fattening hidden bank accounts like Yasser Arafat and so many other have and continue to do what could the Palestinians have? The International Monetary Fund (IMF) conducted an audit of the Palestinian Authority and discovered that Arafat diverted $900 million in public funds to a special bank account controlled by Arafat and the PA Chief Economic Financial Advisor. It was, therefore, not surprising when Forbes ranked Arafat sixth on its 2003 list of “Kings, Queens and Despots,” estimating his personal wealth at a minimum of $300 million.

Where have all the hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars of aid money gone that have gone to the Palestinian Authority from the USA, Europe, other Muslim and Arab countries? Where are the schools, factories, businesses, commerce, irrigation projects, farming projects, education projects, Universities, where has all the money gone? Follow where the aid money went and you will find why Palestinians have NOTHING TODAY! The money has been supplied so where did it GO??????


Salah Al deen, if you want to debate theology that is fine with me but you will not convince me toward Islam. I have studied Islam and Christianity. You will be wasting your breath with me for like Elisha's servant, my eyes were opened long ago so that I may see that which is hidden; I know therefore they that are with me are far greater than those that are with you and Isalm so I have no fear. I say to you, open your eyes, un-stop your ears, humble your heart, and seek the Lord with all deligence least you die in your rebellion against his words for I would that you choose life and not death, freedom and not slavery.

Last edited by Paparock; 10-06-2007 at 10:17 PM..
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  #6  
Old 10-06-2007, 10:18 AM
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Thank you Paparock for your support and apology; I woud not do this better; partly becouse my poor english skills; and more importantly becouse I do not possses your moral virtue and faith in Yeshua; I posted this video becouse it's speak truth and this the truth which only make us free; If any any one; eapecialy one of the forked tongued fallowers of Allah the snake feel ofended by this; well frankly here's one more zionist christian who can't care less... You loosed the right to play the victim game after, 9/11, Bali; Madrid, London Darfur, etc... You won't fool me with Taqiya and Kitman from second post and I won't be threatened in to submission aka islam by your first letter; man shoud fear G-d alone.
To Paprock; yes the convenent between Elohim and Abraham and Israel; is still valid furthemore; The G-d said about Ishmaelites from which the Mahomet came:

Genesis 16:
Hagar and Ishmael

7 The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. 8 And he said, "Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?"
"I'm running away from my mistress Sarai," she answered.

9 Then the angel of the LORD told her, "Go back to your mistress and submit to her." 10 The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count."
11 The angel of the LORD also said to her:
"You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael, [a]
for the LORD has heard of your misery. 12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward [b] all his brothers."

While the Israelites descendents of Isaac and jacon are called:

The Apple of God's Eye

In the Bible God is repeatedly referred to as "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" to emphasize the covenant made through the child of promise Isaac, through whose seed the Messiah would be born (Genesis 17:19-21).

Abraham's child Ismael was a child of fleshly impatience through Hagar "the Egyptian." Nevertheless, God made a very gracious covenant with Hagar also, but a different covenant as well (Genesis 21:17-21).
Not surprisingly, these Israelite "chosen people" would, by the mere fact of their choice by God, provoke many to jealousy, thinking that God was playing favourites!
To be chosen of God, however, is an awesome matter.
Amos reminds Israel of that clearly: 'You only of all the families of the earth have I known (chosen); therefore I will judge you the more severely for your sins (Amos 3:2 & Acts 9:15-16).
A privilege indeed, but a responsibility and accountability as well.
Another basic reason for hatred of the Jewish people throughout history is given to us by Paul in Romans 1:30, where he reveals that fallen human nature "hates God"; and all that God loves, including Israel and Christians. People who have strong feelings against the Jews are themselves called "anti-Semites." It is not an entirely satisfactory word, but we are stuck with it through usage.
How important is this subject of "Jew hatred" to God, and what are the consequences for it before God? The question is of top priority as revealed by the fact that God includes it in His first encounter with Abraham: "I will bless those that bless you, and curse those who curse you" (Genesis 12:1-3).
Without controversy, to be cursed by God is the ultimate human tragedy.
Further, the Bible deals with this issue of anti-Semitism over and over again.
In the book of Numbers we find recorded that Balak, a king who stood in the way of Israel coming up out of Egypt, hired an occult prophet, Balaam, to curse Israel. Balaam is bribed handsomely by Balak, but the prophet is restrained by God Himself from cursing Israel, and cries out instead: "How shall I curse whom God has not cursed" (Numbers 23:8) and, "Behold I have received commandment to bless, and He has blessed Israel and I can not reverse it" (23:20). Finally, "when Balaam saw that it pleased the Lord to bless Israel" (24:1), he said, "How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob and thy tabernacles, 0 Israel" (24:5); "he shall eat up the nations his enemies" (24:8) and, "Blessed is he that blesses thee; and cursed is he that curses thee" (24:9).
The book of Esther also records the fate of Haman, the anti- Semitic Persian, who tried to destroy the Jews of Persia centuries ago: "So they hanged Haman on the gallows he had prepared for Mordecai the Jew" (Esther 7:10).
The Pharaoh of the book of Exodus, who would not let God's people go, drowned pursuing Israel as the nation "went out with great substance."
Hitler and the Nazis planned "the final solution," intending to exterminate every Jew in the world. Actually the satanic plot was much deeper in that the Nazis intended to exterminate Judao-Christian civilization as well; but the point to be made here is that Hitler committed suicide with his own Luger in his underground bunker in Berlin.
The Italian fascist Mussolini was drawn and quartered by an Italian mob in the streets of Rome, reminding us of the cursed Jezebel who was eaten by dogs, as prophesied.
Further, the Psalmist records: "Let them all be confounded and turned back that hate Zion" (Psalm 129:5) and, "Thou has saved us from our enemies, and has put them to shame that hated us" (Psalm 44:7).
Isaiah 11:11-13 predicts that "all the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off' who oppose the restoration of Israel, "in the last days."
Nor are these few Scriptures and examples exhaustive, but merely samples of the truth of God's anger at hatred of His people Israel.
You may not have been previously aware of the seriousness accompanying anti-Semitism; but now that this has been forcibly drawn to your attention it would be well to bow your head, renounce, ask forgiveness, and move out from under that darkness, if you are one that has been previously infected with hatred of the Jewish people. The writer was unwittingly caught up in anti-Semitism years ago, as a result of becoming involved with a political anti-communist group, which then went on to spread venom about the Jews through subsequent studies. It was only by the grace of God that I subsequently came to know the Lord; and He quickly cleansed me of that unsatisfactory set of prejudices, both by His word and His Spirit.
http://christianactionforisrael.org/...n/appleye.html

So all the nations now stand in the valley of Decision:

Joel 3:14 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



14 Multitudes, multitudes
in the valley of decision!
For the day of the LORD is near
in the valley of decision.


Either to back up the Ismaelites, Philistines, Amonites gathered by allah against Israel; or to give our hand and love to children of Jacob.
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Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6985) Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger as saying:
The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.
http://israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=2617
http://israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=3410
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  #7  
Old 10-06-2007, 09:30 PM
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Ultra Requete, I gladly choose to be a servant of Israel under the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and die as such rather than be a King in Islam under Allah.
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Old 10-06-2007, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Allah is not the same God as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob so I and millions more reject the God Muhammad created. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob wrote the Holy Scriptures.
My proplem that I'm weak in English but I'll try to explain what I want to say as I can

what the hell did u say man?
do u believe that there is another god in the world? there is'nt any god except allah the lord of Mohammed and Jesus and Moses And Abraham -peace upon them all- and the lord of all the creatures in the world
if we r diffrent how can we believe in the other prophets? don't u have mind to think about it?
if there is another god then they will fight each other like any kings in the world, because every one will try to control the world alone as he want
but there one god only "Allah" who sent all the prophets peace upon them

u r free by choosing your religion but at first u know the truth and u'll find it if u really want to know
read more about Islam and read the holly Quraan and u'll see that's not from a human because u'll find many things r same between all the 3 holly books


brb

Last edited by Salah_Al_deen; 10-06-2007 at 11:50 PM..
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Old 10-07-2007, 02:58 AM
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  1. Salah_Al_deen, I have read the Quran. It is your right to believe in Islam if you wish just as it is my right to reject Islam as I do.
  2. There is only one true God and it is the God of Abraham, Isaac,and Jacob ; the God of Israel.
  3. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob chose the Jewish people and Israel as his chosen people. "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his seed after him."
  4. Ishmael Did Not recieve the covenant from God.
Do I believe that there is another god in the world? No, there is only one true and living God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and there is NO OTHER! The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob is keeping his word and covenant with his chosen people Israel (Jewish People) as is written in the Judaic texts and in the Christian Bible defending his chosen people against what I believe is the false God Allah's religion Islam's minions that want to destroy the true covenant people of God (Israel) just as the god of Islam wishes he could usurp the living God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob so he used the promise to make the decedents of Ishmael the new covenant people of God. Ishmael’s decedents have coveted the covenant position of their half brothers Isaac’s decedents since Ishmael himself mocked Isaac and Ishmael’s mother tried to get Abraham to go against God’s command that the birthright of Abraham and the Promise of the Covenant belong to Isaac and his decedents as Holy Scripture in the Judaic and Christian Bible record. How else do you think tiny little Israel of a few million Jews has beaten the combined strength of the Muslim nations that have tried to destroy it since it was reborn in it's Promised Land for so long, so many times?

Genesis 17:18-22
“And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before the! And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his seed after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. And he left off talking with him and God went up from Abraham."

Let me make it clear, I reject Allah just as the Jews in Muhammad's time rejected his message as the message of a false prophet.

Last edited by Paparock; 10-07-2007 at 03:31 AM..
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Old 10-07-2007, 04:46 PM
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When I think of people, I think of individuals. Individuals who share ideas, individuals with often conflicting ideas. Individuals who will sometimes even kill because of an idea.

Everything people do is based around our ideas. Unfortunately, some ideas are dangerous. I think Islam is one such idea.

Although, because I think of people as individuals, I don't inherently hate Muslims in general. Nor would I hate a person specifically, for the sole reason that they are a Muslim.

It's not necessarily the people of Islam that I dislike. It's the idea of Islam. The idea, which spreads itself across millions of minds like a virus, causing so much violence, death and destruction.

Even at the mere mention by the Catholic Pope that Islam is a violent religion, and apparently oblivious to the irony, Muslims were rallying and causing more violence, and even killing innocent people, determined to make us believe otherwise.

Then there's one of the most obvious, yet so widely ignored piece of evidence to the violent nature of Islam. The Quran.
Simply read through the Quran, and you will find more examples of violence, and more references and laws to killing than most people would bother counting.
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Old 10-07-2007, 09:20 PM
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My point is that those that seem to believe the most in Islam also seem to be the most hostile toward anyone that believes in anything but Islam. For example Saudi Arabia, the country spends the most in trying to spread Islam like here in the USA, England and Europe and to defend the “Rights” of those that believe in Islam to practice their religious beliefs in any manner they wish no matter how disruptive those practices are to the host country while at the same time The kingdom of Saudi Arabia is an Islamic theocratic monarchy in which Islam is the official religion; the law requires that all Saudi citizens be Muslims. Religious freedom is virtually non-existent. The Government does not provide legal recognition or protection for freedom of religion, and it is severely restricted in practice. The public practice of non-Muslim religions is prohibited. As a matter of policy, the Government guarantees and protects the right to private worship for all, including non-Muslims who gather in homes for religious practice; however, this right is not always respected in practice and is not defined in law. The Saudi Mutaween (Arabic: مطوعين), or Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (i.e., the religious police), enforces the prohibition on the public practice of non-Muslim religions. The Government claims to recognize the right of non-Muslims to worship in private; it does not always respect this right in practice.

So why do Muslims practice "pubic suppression" of non-Musim religions in countries like Saudi Arabia where the most Holy Islamic Sites are located through Official Government "religious police"? Can you say Muslim Hypocrits that say one thing and do another? Muslims demand freedom to worship in public all over the world while they deny other religions the freedom to do the same in Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia despite what they claim the Quran says.

http://www.cdhr.info/Campaigns/ReligiousFreedom
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/14012.htm
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51609.htm
http://www.worldpress.org/Mideast/2189.cfm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_...n_Saudi_Arabia

Last edited by Paparock; 10-07-2007 at 09:37 PM..
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Old 10-07-2007, 11:50 PM
Salah_Al_deen Salah_Al_deen is offline
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Quote:
Salah_Al_deen, I have read the Quran. It is your right to believe in Islam if you wish just as it is my right to reject Islam as I do
that's right :)

Quote:

There is only one true God and it is the God of Abraham, Isaac,and Jacob ; the God of Israel
.

surly u'r honest and he's the god of all the creatures

Quote:
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob chose the Jewish people and Israel as his chosen people. "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his seed after him."
u'r right about every thing except the red words :)

yes, god choose Abraham and he hounered him because he was a great man and he is a great prophet, Abraham is the father of the prophets ...etc
we know that more than u and we called Muslims because of him , because he said : god I gave up to u " or I surrender my self to u"
Islam in Arabic means surrender to god
god order us to Follow his way and all the prophets and that's the messege of prophet Mohammed peace upon him

u just hate muslims because Prophet Mohammed is not from Jaacop sons
he is from Ishmael peace upon him and Ishmael is a prophet also and Abraham's son that means that Isaac and Ishmael were brothers from the same father Abraham peace upon him


all that mean that when we say Allah we mean the same god and there is only one god but he have many names


but u must remember that god choose his prophets not all of u nor us
he choose any one he want from his slaves not as u want

all of us are slaves of god and every one we'll be asked about what he did in this life

I have no time to complete but maybe in another time

shalom
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Old 10-08-2007, 02:25 AM
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Default I feel sorry for those enslaved by Islam

"u just hate muslims because Prophet Mohammed is not from Jaacop sons
he is from Ishmael peace upon him and Ishmael is a prophet also and Abraham's son that means that Isaac and Ishmael were brothers from the same father Abraham peace upon him"

I do not Hate Muslims; I pity them because they are deceived just as Muhammad was deceived. Nowhere in the Judaic nor in the Bible is Ishmael named as nor mentioned as a prophet. That came from what I believe was not an angel from God but a fallen angel sent to deceive Muhammad for the very reason that the decedents of Ishmael have coveted the promise God gave to the decedents of Abraham through Isaac just as Ishmael himself was jealous with envy. That is why Muhammad listened with such itching ears to the tales of a fallen one that he himself according to his own words at first thought was a demon and succumbed to the deception because as a descendent of Ishmael he wanted what he was hearing to be true. I do not hate him for it; I feel sorry for Muhammad for what he must be suffering now knowing the truth.

No,the God I serve is not and has never been called Allah. I know the one who is the deceiver having once served him before The God, freed me from his bondage. The God of Israel is the God of all the earth and of all people upon the earth but the one you call Allah is his enemy and a deceiver. This is my view and you do not share it I understand but within the current generation you will see the truth of my works played out before your eyes. You see the difference between a devout Christian Zionist, like myself and a devout Islamist is I will stand in defense of Israel and Jews while devout Islamists will try their best to kill every Jew upon the Earth. I defend life they seek to destroy life.

You must remember that all the Prophets of God came through the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and then Muhammad laid claim to be a Prophet to that linage but the Linage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as well as the Linage of the believers in Yeshua (Jesus) rejected and deny Muhammad’s claim to prophethood and have declared him a false prophet as not being from The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob for he failed the God given tests of a Prophet sent by God. Only the Quran Muhammad provided supports Muhammad while all other sources refute his words including the very teaching of Yeshua (Jesus).

I am not a slave of God but a Willing servant. God gave me free will whereby I can choose to serve him or deny him. The evil one enslaved me as you are a slave now; it was God that cause the scales to fall from my eyes that I might see I held the power to reject enslavement. Still God allowed me freedom to choose self or God’s way. It is a path I walk each day choosing God’s way over self but I do it of my free will God provides me. No, I am not a slave because he treats me more like a cherished lost child that has found his way home and not like a slave. Maybe someday you can find that kind of peace that allows you to stand even in the face of the hate I hear, see, and feel daily from so many that profess Islam.

Last edited by Paparock; 10-08-2007 at 02:30 AM..
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Old 10-08-2007, 11:16 PM
Salah_Al_deen Salah_Al_deen is offline
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Almighty God forgiveness
"I am innocent, which u say

I can respond to you, but I know you will not believe whatever I said even if you landed mandate from God

My last words are:
I am proud of being a Muslim and "Abdul Allah" and I'll still Muslim, God willing untill I die

As you condemned us God on the Day of Resurrection , then u'll Know the truth
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Old 10-09-2007, 02:35 AM
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Paparock Paparock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salah_Al_deen View Post
Almighty God forgiveness
"I am innocent, which u say

I can respond to you, but I know you will not believe whatever I said even if you landed mandate from God

My last words are:
I am proud of being a Muslim and "Abdul Allah" and I'll still Muslim, God willing untill I die

As you condemned us God on the Day of Resurrection , then u'll Know the truth
When that day comes we shall see who dwells in the light of truth and who hides from the light bringer and judge of all mankind, remember the one they call Rock on that day Salah_Al_deen. Until that day, I will pray for your soul that the hold of the one that enslaves you be broken and that you come to the true knowledge of the one Living God.

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Old 11-04-2007, 02:49 PM
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(Hey, Shalom/salaam everyone; first post. Time to jump in the deep end...)

I really don't think it's fair to criticize Islam as an inherently violent religion, just because there are decent examples of people using violence in its name. I am not Muslim, but I have many friends who are gulf Arabs that completely abhor the kind of perversion of Islam exercised by these terrorists worldwide. Are Christians considered condemned as inherently violent? Historically speaking one would think that they should, and there are many Iraqis that would probably agree even today today.

Islam is a very popular religion in many disenfranchised parts of the world, and if you look at most of these 'bad' examples, the people committing them aren't exactly wealthy or educated. Did you see many rich Saudis burning cars when a newspaper prints a cartoon of Mohammed?

I don't want to apologise for the unacceptable misconduct of violent people, but I can't accept someone talking about an 'invasions' or 'inherent violence' with regard to a religion. What is happening in Europe is simply an influx of alienated migrants, they could be Hindu for all it mattered, they would probably still cause trouble.
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Old 11-04-2007, 03:22 PM
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Exclamation Educate yourself on both Christian and Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real GT View Post
(Hey, Shalom/salaam everyone; first post. Time to jump in the deep end...)

I really don't think it's fair to criticize Islam as an inherently violent religion, just because there are decent examples of people using violence in its name. I am not Muslim, but I have many friends who are gulf Arabs that completely abhor the kind of perversion of Islam exercised by these terrorists worldwide. Are Christians considered condemned as inherently violent? Historically speaking one would think that they should, and there are many Iraqis that would probably agree even today today.

Islam is a very popular religion in many disenfranchised parts of the world, and if you look at most of these 'bad' examples, the people committing them aren't exactly wealthy or educated. Did you see many rich Saudis burning cars when a newspaper prints a cartoon of Mohammed?

I don't want to apologise for the unacceptable misconduct of violent people, but I can't accept someone talking about an 'invasions' or 'inherent violence' with regard to a religion. What is happening in Europe is simply an influx of alienated migrants, they could be Hindu for all it mattered, they would probably still cause trouble.
Real GT, since this is your first post, I will first welcome you to the forum. Then I will tell you that you need to educate yourself on the history and facts on both Christianity and Isalm. There is fundamental diference between the teachings that Jesus taught the the "Chruch" violated in its dealings with the Jews and the teaching of Muhammad that militant terrorists follow if you care to learn the truth.

Christian-Jewish Relations

http://www.israelmilitary.net/newrep...wreply&p=19974
Another good source is the book, "Our Hands are Stained with Blood" by Michael L. Brown

Muslim-Jewish Relations

One must understand the true Muslim view is set by the view of Muhammad that Muslims consider lived the perfect Muslim life and therefore set the perfect example for them to follow. The Quran and Hadith are the collections of his words and teachings that are require teachings for them to follow. The following are from those teachings.

MUHAMMAD AND THE JEWS:
AN ETERNAL ENMITY

by Boris Shusteff

(Part 1 of 3)

Fight against such of those to whom, the Scriptures were given as believe in neither God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true Faith. (Qur'an 9:29)

Every event in the life of the Prophet must be studied carefully in order to learn how to respond should one find oneself in similar circumstances. (Salahi, Muhammad: Man and Prophet, 382)

It is absolutely mind-boggling that people are often unable to see the simple truth, even when they are looking directly at it. A good example is A.B. Yehoshua, a stalwart of the Israeli liberal left. In a July 21 article in The Jerusalem Post, speaking about "a new wave of hatred towards Jews [that] swept across the Arab and Muslim world" he suggests that "the cause and motive of this outbreak of animosity and rejection [of the Jews] must be analyzed."

He writes that "we Jews [must] become more adept at deciphering reality, take pains not to delude ourselves." However, he then completely fails to do this, because he takes the Six-Day War as the starting point of the Jewish-Arab conflict. While criticizing traditional Orthodox Jewry for its refusal "to confront the issue of anti-Semitism and study its causes," he himself does not even touch the issue of Muslim Judeo-phobia, thus missing the only chance to "decipher reality."

He deludes himself and his readers by completely ignoring the religious component of the Arab "rejection of the Jews." Only by taking it into account can we understand why all efforts at appeasement in dealing with the Arabs will always fail. One must analyze the ways that the Prophet Muhammad dealt with the Jews 1,400 years ago in order to gain insight into what can be expected from Muslims today.

Professor Akbar Ahmed from Cambridge writes about the enormous role that Muhammad plays in the Arab world. Muslims revere him above any and all human beings. Ahmed wrote,

"As the Prophet is the messenger, the Qur'an is the message of God. Together they provide the basis for the ideal type of Muslim behavior and thought The Prophet himself had said in his last sermon: 'I leave behind me two things, the Qur'an and my example the sunnah [traditions about the words and deeds of the Prophet], and if you follow these you will never go astray" (1).

In our research on Prophet-Jewish relations we shall assign the role of adviser to Adil Salahi, a British journalist of Arabic origin, and will rely on his fundamental book "Muhammad: Man and Prophet." Salahi spent countless days studying various biographies of the Prophet. He writes "I could not put down the "Life of the Prophet" by ibn Hisham. I do not recall how many times I read that invaluable book, written over a thousand years ago" (ix). While writing the book he serialized the Prophet's history "attending to details and commenting on events. It took four years and a total of 200 episodes to complete." The book presents the "standard Islamic view in detail, trying to elucidate it as much as possible" (xi).

In the introduction to the book Salahi wrote: "There is always an example to follow, an attitude to adopt or a lesson to learn from the Prophet. Whether you are Muslim or not, a careful study of his blessed life will enable you to have a much better understanding of Islam" (x).

We begin our journey with Muhamad's arrival in Medina. At that time three main Jewish tribes lived there, "whose adult males numbered in excess of 2000" (208). These tribes were the Qainuqaa', An-Nadheer and Quraithah. The Jews lived in their own quarters and constituted almost half of the city's population.

While Salahi provides in his book examples of "good Jews" - i.e. ones that accepted the Prophet and converted to Islam - one will be hard pressed to find in the book good words about the Jews as a people. On the contrary, Salahi presents them in a very negative way. He writes:

"It was easy for the Jews to operate their usurious system. In their pawn shops, the Jews did not only accept valuable articles as pledges, but would also take woman and children as security against the repayment of loans. This system secured a strong financial position for the Jews, which enabled them to manipulate the market and exploit it to their own advantage. Hence, the whole population hated them for their selfishness, usury and for the means they adopted to get rich" (210).

Two major Arab tribes, the Aws and the Khazraj, lived in Medina at the time of the Prophet's arrival there. Salahi states that the Jews governed their relations with these tribes based on their own interests.

"They would do anything which ensured any material gain. Hence they tried to cause war to flare up between two tribes, whenever they judged that such a war would be to their own advantage. Indeed, it was the Jews who caused all the civil wars which considerably weakened both the Aws and Khazraj tribes" (210).

In his narrative Salahi constantly presents the Jews as the enemies of Islam. He writes, " Little did [the Prophet] think in the beginning that blind hatred of anything that did not emanate with the Israelites would determine the Jews' attitude towards Islam" (277). "Shas ibn Qais was an old Jew with unparalleled hatred for Islam" (282). "The Jews of Madinah [Medina] were fierce enemies of Islam, waiting for every chance to deal a devastating blow to Muslims" (283).

Let us follow the development of the events that lead to the expulsion of Qainuqaa', the first Jewish tribe. Salahi writes, "Despite the fact that the Prophet made a treaty with the Jews when he first arrived in Madinah, which stipulated that the Jews would support the Muslims in any fight against any enemy who threatened the Muslims in Madinah, it was soon to become clear that the Jews had no intention of putting that provision into effect" (283).

Salahi continues,

"Indeed, their hatred of Islam, which has no cause except the fact that the Prophet himself was not Jewish, became self-evident - so much so that when they realized that the Muslims had achieved a resounding victory at Badr, they felt very sorry for the non-believers and felt insecure in Madinah Hence the Jews gave every indication that they considered their peace treaty with the Prophet broken. Their poets started to ridicule the Muslims and belittle their victory. Unashamedly they also spoke ill of the Prophet and started a barrage of ridicule against him" (283).

Salahi continues to build his case against the Jews. "The tribe of Qainuqaa' [was] the closest to the Arabs in their quarters. It was perhaps this proximity that led the Jewish tribe of Qainuqaa' to show more hostility to the Muslims then the rest of the Jews. Any provocation would surely be enough to start a war between the two parties" (282). The "provocation" happened very soon when a Muslim woman went into a jeweler's shop in the Jewish market.

"In order to have a laugh at her, a Jew came from behind her and took the lower edge of her dress and stuck it to her shoulders, but she was totally unaware When she stood up the lower part of her body was visible and all the Jews around her laughed. She cried for help and a Muslim man nearby attacked the Jew who perpetrated this and killed him. Several men then attacked the Muslim and killed him" (284).

From this episode, it is hard to conclude that the Jews are on the verge of breaching the agreement, but it is exactly the conclusion at which the Prophet arrives. Let us listen to Salahi,

"The Prophet quickly came over and tried to calm everybody down. The Prophet called notables in the Qainuqaa' tribe and spoke to them, warning them against breach of their treaty: 'You had better guard against a calamity, like that which befell the Quraish. You will be well advised to adopt Islam' Their hatred, however, had become very strong and they would not listen. Their answer was far from conciliatory: 'Muhammad, do you think that we are an easy prey? If we were to fight you, you would certainly know that we are the true fighters' " (284).

Now the case is built. Salahi concludes, "The Jewish tribe of Qainuqaa' moved over to the enemy camp There was certainly no chance that the Muslims would feel easy about probable treachery by the Qainuqaa' Jews when the state of war still existed between the Muslims and the Quraish" (284).

It is important to note that these accusations against the Jews were based on assumptions, feelings and probabilities. So far the Jews had not really done anything criminal. However, this was enough for Muhammad. Salahi writes, "The Prophet received the following instruction from Allah: 'If you have reason to fear treachery from people with whom you have made a covenant, cast it back at them in an equitable manner. For, indeed, Allah does not love the treacherous.' (Qur'an 8:58)" (284).

Armed with this instruction the Prophet declared to [the Jews] that

"The treaty between two parties no longer has any value. He also warned them that he considered himself at war with them. They, on their part, went into their fortifications while the Muslims put them under siege. The siege continued for 15 days, during which the Qainuqaa' Jews received no help whatsoever from any quarter" (285).

As we'll see later, the fate of the Qainuqaa' Jews was the best of all three Jewish tribes. When they "realized that their case was hopeless, they were overtaken by fear and decided to ask the Prophet to let them leave Madinah. He accepted their offer to leave and let them go with their women and children, provided that they left behind their property and arms" (286).

Salahi explains the relatively mild "punishment" of the Jews. The Prophet stopped short of much more severe measures because one of the leaders of the hypocrites Abdullah ibn Ubbai asked him to spare the Jews, since they "are 700 fighters who always protected me against all my enemies". Before the Prophet came to Medina, Abdullah was very influential and Muhammad decided not to alienate the large non-Muslim community, hoping to attract them to Islam in the future.

The Prophet dealt out punishment to individual Jews as well. Salahi presents an episode in Muhammad's life that culminated in the death of "Ka'ab ibn Al Ashraf, a prominent personality of the Jewish tribe An-Nadheer." In this case, the straw that broke the camel's back was the fact that Ka'ab "wrote obscene love poems mentioning Muslim women. This was extremely offensive to the Muslims, who valued their honor very highly" (290).

The Prophet decided that Ka'ab must be stopped.

"He therefore said to some of his companions: 'Who will rid us of Ibn Al-Ashraf, for he has declared his hostility openly?' A man from the Ansar called Muhammad ibn Maslamah said: 'I volunteer for that. I will kill him.' This man requested and was granted permission from the Prophet to pretend to Ka'ab that he and his friends were against the Prophet and against Islam. It is important to note that the Prophet did not hesitate to grant them such permission" (291).

Ibn Maslamah went to Ka'ab with Silkan ibn Salamah. As Salahi explains, "Silkan was Ka'ab's brother by virtue of their both being breast-fed by the same woman. There was therefore an element of trust between them" (291). Silkan deceived Ka'ab and convinced him to meet his friends. The Prophet was involved in the final preparation for the killing. Salahi writes, "They all met at the Prophet's place. Then they set out and the Prophet walked with them part of the way. Before they left him, he blessed their mission and prayed Allah to help them" (292).

The Muslims lured Ka'ab out into the street. Salahi describes the killing,

"When they had walked for quite a while, Silkan suddenly held Ka'ab by his head and shouted to his friends: 'Kill the enemy of Allah'. They hit him with their swords, but he apparently has his armor on and they did not harm him. Muhammad ibn Masalamah, however, had a knife. He stabbed Ka'ab in the lower part of his abdomen and pulled the knife down. Ka'ab fell. When they had made sure that Ka'ab could not live, they started to run" (292).

One of the killers, Al-Harith ibn Aws was wounded during the mission. The other Muslims carried him and went "straight to met the Prophet He went out to see them and they told him of the success of their mission. He wiped Al-Harith's wound with his saliva and it cleared up The incident struck fear in the hearts of the Jews, who realized that the Muslims would tolerate hostility from no one" (293).

(End of Part 1 of 3)

The page numbers in parentheses are from source 2.

1. Akbar S. Ahmed, Islam Today: A Short Introduction to the Muslim World. I.B. Tauris Publishers, 2001. p.28.
2. Adil Salahi. Muhammad: Man and Prophet. A Complete Study of the Life of the Prophet of Islam. Barn and Nobles Books, New York, 1995.

MUHAMMAD AND THE JEWS: AN ETERNAL ENMITY

by Boris Shusteff

(Part 2 of 3)

The expulsion of the second Jewish tribe - the An-Nadheer - followed after the Prophet unearthed the Jewish conspiracy against him. Here are the circumstances of the story. The Prophet had to pay blood money to the relatives of the men killed by one of his companions. Since the Muslim state in Medina was a very poor one, he went to the Jewish tribe of An-Nadheer to ask for money. Salahi writes,

"He asked their chiefs to contribute to the blood money he had to pay. When he made his purpose clear to them they showed their willingness to meet his request. They were careful to show respect to him and addressed him by his title of Abu Al-Qassim, meaning the father of his eldest son, Al-Qassim, who, incidentally had died in infancy. They said to him: 'We will certainly help you in this matter'" (350).

The Prophet and his companions sat down close to a house belonging to a Jew waiting for the money. Then events took a bizarre turn. This is how Salahi describes them,

"The chiefs of the An-Nadheer tribe left them pretending that they were about to raise some money When they were alone, some of the Jews said: 'You will never find the man as easy a prey as he is now. Let a strong person go onto the roof of the house next to which Mohammad is sitting and drop a large stone or rock over his head and rid us of him.' One of them, Amir ibn Jihash ibn Ka'ab, volunteered to commit the treacherous crime. The Prophet was informed by Allah of the design of the An-Nadheer tribe, so he left his companions in their place, giving the impression that he was coming back soon, and went straight to Madinah" (350).

This is the famous episode, which all the Muslims keep reinvigorating, repeating for 1,400 years that the "Jews are the traitors that wanted to kill the Prophet". It is doubtful that nowadays any court would have taken this case for consideration based only on information submitted to Muhammad by Allah. However, Allah's words are the ultimate proof for Muslims. Besides, the Qur'an clearly says: "You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the pagans" (Qur'an 5:82). And, "Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal" (Qur'an 3:118).

Salahi writes, that when the Prophet "escaped the assassination attempt there was no reason for the An-Nadheer tribe to continue with their plot" (351). However, for Muhammad the case with the An-Nadheer tribe was over. He sent one of his companions with the following message to the Jews,

"Betake yourselves out of my city. You are no longer allowed to share it with me now that you have plotted your treacherous action against me. I give you ten days' notice to carry out this ultimatum. Any one of you seen after this period in Madinah shall be executed" (351).

The Jews tried to resist. They were promised help by Abdullah ibn Ubbai, the man who earlier pleaded for the first expelled Jewish tribe of Qainuqaa'. The Jews again retreated into their quarters. The Muslims encircled them. The siege lasted for 26 days, nobody came to the Jews' help and they asked the Prophet to allow them to leave the city on the same conditions that were stipulated for the Qainuqaa' Jews. However, the Prophet replied that since they "wanted to join forces with others against the Prophet and Muslims [that] meant that they would do the same whenever a new opportunity presented itself" (353).

Therefore their punishment was harsher. They were told that they would have safe conduct to leave Medina with their women and children. However, each of them could have only a camel load of his belongings and no arms were allowed. Their farms and lands were to be given up.

Salahi concludes the episode of the expulsion of the An-Nadheer with following statement, "Thus the encounter with the second Jewish tribe came to its conclusion. Muslims did not have to fight and no blood was shed. The Muslim state was considerably richer now with the lands and the property that the Muslims had gained from the Jews" (354).

Salahi reminds us of another very important point about this expulsion. He indicates that "the Muslims themselves did not expect the Jews of An-Nadheer to be evacuated. This is because of the strength and forces that the Jews possessed." It was Allah who forced them out. "It was He that drove the unbelievers among the people of earlier scriptures Allah reached them when they did not expect, and cast terror in their hearts so that their homes were destroyed with their own hands and the hands of the believers" (Qur'an 59:2).

While the Jews of Qainuqaa' were simply expelled and the Jews of An-Nadheer were expelled and their possessions taken away, the fate of the third Jewish tribe - the Quraithah - was tragic. The Prophet's encounter with this Jewish tribe took place at the time when Medina was besieged by Mohammed's own tribe from Mecca - the Quraish, and the confederate Arab tribes which joined them. As Salahi writes, "this alliance is forged by the Jews." He painstakingly describes the efforts of the Jews to create this anti-Muhammad alliance. Salahi constantly stresses that Muhammad had two major enemies: his Quraish tribe from Mecca and the Jews. He often mentions Quraish and the Jews in one breath. "Indeed, neither the Quraish nor the Jews felt that they could score a victory in an open battle against Muslims." "Both the Quraish and the Jews, however, could only grow more bitter as they realized that Islam was getting stronger every day."

However, while the Quraish and the confederate Arab tribes are shown in the book as mainly marching and waiting to attack Medina, the Jews are constantly presented as the chief spoilers. The following example speaks for itself. Quraish leaders addressed Jewish chiefs,

"some of whom were Rabbis: 'You the Jewish people, are the people of ancient scriptures. You know our quarrel with Muhammad. We now want to ask you: which is better of the two religions - ours or his?' Unhesitatingly, the Jewish chiefs said to those who worshipped idols: Your religion is certainly better than his and you are nearer to the truth than he" (396).

Salahi writes that the Jews in order to persuade the Arab tribe of Ghatafan to join the anti-Islamic alliance promised them "the entire date harvest for a whole year after they have achieved their victory against Muhammad" (397). It is worth mentioning that the Jews who "worked hard to forge the alliance" were not those of the Quraithah tribe but from the An-Nadheer tribe that were expelled by Muhammad to Khaibar after they had been robbed of their possessions.

Salahi's story goes further, describing the siege of Medina by Quraish and other non-Islamic forces. They were unable to breach Muhammad's defense. Then Huyai ibn Akhtab, one of the Rabbis of the An-Nadheer, "realized that the only chance to achieve the goal of bringing about the collapse of Islam and the annihilation of Muhammad and his companions was to persuade the Quraithah to join forces with the Arabic polytheist and their Jewish allies" (405).

Very soon ibn Akhtab convinced Rabbi Ka'ab ibn Assad, the Quraithah leader, to join the anti-Muhammad forces. When that was done "the Quraithah followed their leader Ka'ab ibn Assad in his unilateral abrogation of their treaty with the Muslims" (407). Salahi writes that the Quraithah asked to be given ten days to prepare for the fight against Muslims. The Jews are presented in the book as the most dangerous element of the anti-Islam coalition. "Some of the companions of the Prophet [said] that they were much more worried about their women and children being attacked by the Quraithah than about facing the much larger force of the Quraish and Ghatafan" (412).

Salahi explains that "the Jews of the Quraithah had easy access to Madinah and apparently they sent some of their men to frighten the Muslim women and children. One of them was killed by Saffiyyah bint Abdulmutallib, the Prophet's aunt, when she saw the man moving suspiciously very close to the quarters of the Muslim women" (413).

Then a miracle happened. The Quraish and Ghatifan decided that they could not continue the siege of Medina any longer and left. The Muslims realized "that this was accomplished through no effort of their own, except their demonstration that they were prepared to give any sacrifice they were called on to give. As said earlier, it was accomplished by Divine Providence" (423).

The same Divine Providence told Muhammad to settle the score with the Jews. The next day after the departure of the Quraish, "the Angel Gabriel came to the Prophet to tell him: 'Allah commands you, Muhammad, to march to the Quraithah. I am now going there to shake their hearts" (423). In order to take the Quraithah by surprise the Prophet even permitted the postponement of an obligatory prayer. The Muslims imposed a siege on the Quraithah Jews. All attempts by the Jews to come to a peaceful agreement with Muhammad were refused by him. "They were told that their only choice was to submit to the judgment of the Prophet, whatever that might be - that is, an unconditional surrender" (427).

After 25 days of siege the Jews surrendered and "accepted the judgment of the Prophet." The Prophet told them "to choose any person from the Aws to be their arbiter. Their choice was the chief of the Aws tribe, Sa'ad ibn Mu'tah." The Aws used to be the Jews' former allies. Thus, one could have expected some clemency in their judgment. When the Aws people brought a donkey to Sa'ad, and sent him on his way, they told him, "The Prophet has chosen you to judge them in order that you be kind to them. You know that Abdullah ibn Ubai was kind to his allies." However Sa'ad was silent at their request and then when he became tired of their insistence he said: "It is time for Sa'ad to disregard all criticism when it comes to something through which he hopes to please Allah." (431). And Sa'ad pleased Allah.

"He asked Quraithah to give him their most solemn pledges and oaths that they would accept whatever judgement he made. When they did, he pronounced his verdict in these words: 'I hereby rule that all the men of the Quraithah are to be killed, their properties to be divided and their women and children be enslaved.' The Prophet endorsed the ruling and said it was Allah's" (431).

The Jews were taken into Medina. Moats were dug in the marketplace for the execution of the Jewish men, who were taken in groups and beheaded. "Some reports suggest that the number of men killed was 400. Others put it at 600 and other put it even higher at 800-900. Perhaps it is more accurate to say that the number was 600-700 people" (432). Salahi explains that the punishment incurred by the Jews was just. Since "Ka'ab ibn Assad led Quraithah to perpetrate treachery which could have left thousands of Muslims dead in the streets of Medina and a fatal blow befalling their women and children" (434). "Had they been allowed to settle somewhere else in Arabia, they were certain to try to have another go at the Muslims by raising new forces and forging new alliances. No wise government would have allowed its enemy such a chance" (436).

(End of Part 2 of 3)

The page numbers in parentheses are from source 2.

1. Akbar S. Ahmed, Islam Today: A Short Introduction to the Muslim World. I.B. Tauris Publishers, 2001. p.28.
2. Adil Salahi. Muhammad: Man and Prophet. A Complete Study of the Life of the Prophet of Islam. Barn and Nobles Books, New York, 1995.

MUHAMMAD AND THE JEWS: AN ETERNAL ENMITY

by Boris Shusteff

(Part 3 of 3)

The slaughter of the Quraithah Jews was not the last encounter that the Prophet had with the Jews. Five days' travel from Medina by camel, about 100 miles away, the large oasis of Khaibar became the main center of Jewish concentration in Arabia, after the destruction of Medina Jewry. The land there was very fertile, with farms and orchards stretching over a very large area. After concluding the famous Al-Hudaibiyah agreement with the Quraish "the Prophet felt that the Muslims were now in position to neutralize the threat posed by the Jews in Khaibar. He therefore called on his companions to mobilize again and start the march towards Khaibar" (493). Salahi explains,

"This was the reason which prompted the Prophet to march on Khaibar. Had he not done so, the Jews of Khaibar would have continued to urge others to attack the Muslims. The pattern of raising Arab tribes against the Muslims would be repeated again and again. There was no other way of stopping the Jewish aggression except by attacking the Jews in their own castles" (495).

The Jews were besieged. In one of the attacks the Muslims forced the gates of one of the forts to open "and started to kill anyone who resisted them, or to take him prisoner" (499). When majority of their strongholds failed, the Jews offered to surrender in return for their safety.

"The surrender agreement stipulated that none of the fighters would be put to death. They would be allowed to leave Khaibar and its vicinity, taking with them their women and children. They would abandon all claims over their land, money, horses and arms. To these conditions the Prophet added: 'But all guaranties given you would be abrogated if you withhold anything from me'. Thus all Khaibar fell to Muslims who were now in possessions of all its wealth and land" (501).

However, when the agreement was made the Jews changed their minds. They asked the Prophet to allow them to remain and work in the farms and orchards, saying, "We are better in this sort of job than you, and the land would yield much better crops if we work on it." They offered to give Muslims half of the crops of all the land in Khaibar in return. "The Prophet accepted these offers and amended the peace agreement accordingly, but added the proviso that the Muslims would evacuate the Jews from Khaibar whenever they chose" (501). After conquering Khaibar the Muslims "smashed the political and economic power of the Jews in Arabia. As the power of Islam continued to increase, the Jewish influence paled into insignificance" (508).

There is no reason to question the validity of any episodes in Muhammad's relations with the Jews. It does not matter how much truth is in them. What matters is that they persist from one biography of Muhammad to another. They have been repeated for fourteen centuries by Muslims all over the world. The Muslims learn from them that the Jews are a treacherous and extremely dangerous people that must be either expelled, killed or enslaved.

The mass destruction of the Quraithah Jews is the only episode in Muhammad's life where his enemies were slaughtered in such terrible numbers. The Jews were the only people treated by the Prophet this mercilessly. A good comparison would be the fate of the Quraish people after Muhammad conquered Mecca. Before the attack "All commanders were under strict orders not to start fighting unless they were attacked. The Prophet was very keen not to shed blood in Makkah [Mecca]" (576). It was reported to the Prophet that one of his commanders Sa'ad "might be so carried away by the occasion that he would start killing the Quraish people. The Prophet was keen not to shed a drop of blood, if that was at all possible, so he replaced Sa'ad at the command of that division" (578).

When Mecca was conquered Muhammad addressed the Quraish and asked them: "What sort of judgement do you think I am going to pass against you? You may go free. You are all pardoned'" (580). Salahi explained that "the pardon granted by the Prophet to the people of Makkah was a general pardon which included all those who fought against him in the battles which had taken place between the Quraish and Muslims" (580).

What is even more important is that these people whose lives the Prophet spared were "indeed the very people who turned him out of their city after repeatedly plotting to destroy his life" (587). (Just recall that for an imagined plot against his life, Muhammad expelled all the Jews of the An-Nadheer tribe and confiscated their possessions).

Salahi writes that when Muhammad called on the Quraish to accept Allah they rejected his appeal. "They stopped at nothing in their hostility to him personally and to his cause. They accused him of being a liar, a sorcerer and a madman. They schemed against him and urged others to be hostile to him and to his companions. They forged alliances to meet his peaceful calls with force of arms" (587).

If one compares the deeds of the Quraish with the deeds of the Jews, the injustice of the punishment brought on the Jews becomes extremely obvious. Especially, taking into account that not in a single episode did the Jews actually inflict any harm on the Prophet. All accusations against them were based on the assumptions that the Jews "might do something." While the Quraish marched all the way from Mecca, without hiding their intentions to destroy Muhammad, the Jews were only "thinking" of inflicting harm on the Prophet and the cause of Islam, based on unproven accusations. This was, however, enough for their merciless treatment.

From Muhammad's relations with the Jews the Muslims can learn only one thing: that they must constantly fight the Jews, since this is what Muhammad was tirelessly doing. Muslims learned from Muhammad's encounters with the Jews that the Jews are the biggest enemies of Islam, that they will never stop battling Muslims, that they are an extremely dangerous people because of their treacheries nature, that they constantly caused wars, and that they attempted to kill the Prophet many times and only Allah saved him. Muhammad died in 632, but the Muslim hatred towards Jews never abated.

On June 14, Fox News published the transcript of an interview with a 3-year-old girl conducted by Muslim Woman Magazine with the host Doaa 'Amer on Iqraa [Saudi Arabia/Egypt TV channel] television. It deserves to be presented almost in its entirety.

'Amer: "Our guest is a girl, a Muslim girl, but a true Muslim. Allah willing, may our God give us the strength to educate our children the same way, so that the next generation will turn out to be true Muslims who understand that they are Muslims and know who their enemies are.
Toddler: Allah's mercy and blessing upon you.
'Amer: What's your name?
Toddler: Basmallah.
'Amer: Basmallah, how old are you?
Toddler: Three and a half.
'Amer: Are you a Muslim?
Toddler: Yes.
'Amer: Basmallah, are you familiar with the Jews?
Toddler: Yes. '
Amer: Do you like them?
Toddler: No.
'Amer: Why don't you like them?
Toddler: Because . . .
'Amer: Because they are what?
Toddler: They're apes and pigs.
'Amer: Because they are apes and pigs. Who said they are so?
Toddler: Our God.
'Amer: Where did he say this?
Toddler: In the Koran.
'Amer: Right, he said that about them in the Koran. Okay, Basmallah, what are the Jews doing? Did they love our master, Muhammad?
Toddler: No.
'Amer: No. What did the Jews do to him?
Toddler: [Pauses, struggling for the right answer.] The Prophet Muhammad killed someone . . .
'Amer: Obviously, our master Muhammad was strong and could have killed them. All right, you know the traditions about the Jews and what they did to the Prophet Muhammad? Is there a story you know?
Toddler: Yes, the story about the Jewish woman. There was a Jewish woman who invited the Prophet and his friends. When he asked her, "Did you put poison (in my food)?" she said to him, "Yes." he asked her, "Why did you do this?" and she replied, "If you are a liar you will die and Allah will not protect you; if you speak the truth Allah will protect you."
'Amer: And our God protected the Prophet Muhammad, of course.
Toddler: And he said to his friends, "I will kill this lady."
'Amer: Of course, because she put poison in his food, this Jewess.
'Amer: Basmallah, Allah be praised. May our God bless her. No one could wish Allah could give him a more believing girl than she. May Allah bless her and her father and mother. The next generation of children must be true Muslims. We must educate them now while they are still children so that they will be true Muslims.

According to Amer to be a true Muslim means to hate the Jews. Millions of little Basmallahs all over the world study the life of the Prophet learning how they need to deal with the Jews. They learn that the Prophet expelled the Jews and therefore, almost all the Jews today have been expelled from Arab countries. They learn that the Prophet robbed the Jews of their possessions, so they rob the Jews of their possessions, as well. They learn that the Prophet orchestrated killings of Jews and they are only glad to follow his example. All stories of Muhammad's life present Jews as dangerous enemies of the Prophet and Islam. This is the axiom that Muslim Arabs obtain with their mother's milk.

Muhammad was ruthless to the Jews, seeing them as his mortal enemies. As the Qur'an says: "the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews" (Qur'an 5:82). He had said in his last sermon: 'I leave behind me two things, the Qur'an and my example the sunnah, and if you follow these you will never go astray." Only those who do not understand Islam may believe that the Muslims will ever dare to question his last will.

The page numbers in parentheses are from source 2.

1. Akbar S. Ahmed, Islam Today: A Short Introduction to the Muslim World. I.B. Tauris Publishers, 2001. p.28.
2. Adil Salahi. Muhammad: Man and Prophet. A Complete Study of the Life of the Prophet of Islam. Barn and Nobles Books, New York, 1995.

The Arab/Muslim Nazi Connection

http://christianactionforisrael.org/.../arabnazi.html

A picture taken in 1943 of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini reviewing Bosnian-Muslim troops - a unit of the "Hanjar (Saber) Division" of the Waffen SS which he personally recruited for Hitler.

Last edited by Paparock; 11-04-2007 at 03:33 PM..
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Old 11-05-2007, 11:03 AM
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First of all, wow. After I posted I half expected someone to say something like "rich Saudis; what like this guy? [insert picture of Bin Laden]". I must say I didn't expect quite such a well prepared response as this.

First of all, I see you have a very strong interest in theology Paparock, and on this knowledge I must defer to your background study as my experience with Islam is primarily anecdotal. I apologise in advance if my level of debate is not up to your usual standard, however there are still a few points I'd like to raise.

What I can extrapolate out from your writing is that religious/historical prejudice against Jews by Muslims is based on the (assumed) experiences of Muhammad. While this is certainly and arguable religious issue, it does not account for the Muslims that do no ascribe to this bigotry. Just because there are many that do (like that horrible family in the Fox News interview), does not mean Islam is inexorably linked with prejudice against Jewish people, or violence in general.

I don't want to come across as naive, but I like to think that Islamic people are capable of looking away from anti Jewish prejudice in the time of Muhammad, in the same way that Christians (typically) don't 'blame' Jews for the death of Christ (as some unfortunately have in the past).

Normally I wouldn't get involved in such a theological debate as my field of study is politics not religion, and as you say; perhaps I am yet to really understand Islam. However, I can't help but feel it is an injustice to my friends who are both Muslim and without prejudice, not to at least raise the idea that there is an alternative to the institution of Jewish/Islamic conflict.

Finally, I am new to this board and really don't mean to cause any offence to my fellow members. Honestly, I just came here to download pictures of cute girls and IDF fighter planes.
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Old 11-05-2007, 07:27 PM
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There was no offense taken believe me. What I am trying to get across to you is that Muslims if they if they believe the words of Muhammad in the Quran (Koran) and Hadith are the worlds of God , then they are according to the very definition of their faith “slaves to Allah.” Now if they do not believe in Islam then they are not Muslims, if they do not follow the teachings of Muhammad the founder of Islam then they are not “practicing Muslims” however id they say the words Muhammad spoke are law to them and they must follow them and they still maintain they do not hate Jews and non-Muslims then they are liars and deceiving you for if you read the words Muhammad gave his followers it is clear-cut. In any religion including Christianity there are those that call themselves by that name but have little or no understanding of what it means to believe in that faith. They are religious in name only people but do not practice or understand what it means when they say I believe in Islam or I believe in Christianity. There are many such in this world. I cannot speak of what is in the mind or souls of such people that just like to play religious. I can only tell you what the founding faiths are based on and what those that try to live life to emulate the principles of those faiths base their life on. If your friends are Muslims in name only then you will have to ascertain on what they base what believing in Islam means to them. Must they follow the teachings in the Quran (Koran) or the Hadith? Do they consider the Quran and Hadith the word of God? Do they base their daily life decisions, how they are to deal with other people on the teachings found in the Quran and Hadith and so on? They may truly be secular Muslims that were just born into a Muslim family and other wise ignore Islam. Those are those of which I speak. I speak of those that believe their faith, and live their faith as they think Muhammad did trying to follow Muhammad’s example.

There are a lot of explinations on the history of the conflict and reasons (social, psychological, ancestral, and linage related) here on this forum if you care to learn the whole story otherwise you are only dealing with half-truths. To study or understand Islam you must study theology, political science, military science, sociology, and psychology for Isalm operates in all these fields as a means of control and expansion to achieve its ultimate goal as stated by Muhammad the founder and the one Islam says is the example of the perfect Muslim life to be followed “I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for the right affairs rest with Allah.”
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Last edited by Paparock; 11-05-2007 at 07:36 PM..
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Old 12-19-2007, 10:43 AM
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The devil has done a great job in confusing the world with various religions.Judaism Islam and Christianity all believe in the Old testament as a Christian I think its all part of the evil plan what is happening but only if we were to love more we can prolong the inevitable
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