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Australia, Oceania Military News from Australia, New Zealand and Tazmania :D

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  #1  
Old 03-26-2008, 05:26 AM
Chris1 Chris1 is offline
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Default Australia pushing US For F-22

"
DEFENCE Minister Joel Fitzgibbon will step up pressure on the US to overturn its ban on the sale of the F-22 Raptor fighter, amid growing federal government concern about delays and cost increases affecting the Joint Strike Fighter program.
Foreign sales of the F-22, described by many aviation experts as the world's best air superiority fighter, are banned by Congress, but there are signs that Washington might make an exemption for Australia.
Mr Fitzgibbon told The Australian yesterday he intended to push US Defence Secretary Robert Gates to allow the sale of the world's most advanced operational stealth fighter to Australia at next month's NATO conference in Bucharest.
"Ongoing question marks over the delivery schedule of the JSF reinforces the need we have to look at other '5th Generation' aircraft such as the F-22 Raptor," he said.
"During my bilateral meetings with Secretary Gates at the upcoming NATO meeting in Bucharest, I will again be discussing this issue with him."
More delays and increased costs to the so-far unproven US-designed Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning are driving renewed interest in the previously off-limits F-22. Reliable government sources told The Australian yesterday the RAAF might be able to buy the F-22 "off the shelf" under a congressional waiver, or a modified version stripped of some secretive technology.
Australia is part of an international coalition with purchase options on the multi-role JSF and has flagged an initial order of 100 of the jets, worth a minimum $16billion. But many defence strategists question the wisdom of the deal, given the retirement of the ageing F-111 fleet in 2010.
To bridge the capability gap, the Howard government ordered 24 F/A 18F Super Hornet fighters, at a cost of $6.5billion, to serve as frontline aircraft until the arrival of the JSFs in 2018. Despite misgivings about the procurement process, Mr Fitzgibbon last week confirmed the Rudd Government would go ahead with the controversial purchase."

Your thoughts?

Would a modified version of the F-22 still be able to beat russian aircraft??I hope we do get the F-22s becuase australia needs some type of edge over its asian neibours other then training.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-31477,00.html
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  #2  
Old 03-26-2008, 05:30 AM
[MakkabI] [MakkabI] is offline
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I hope Israel will receive some F-22!
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Old 03-26-2008, 06:26 AM
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i cant see it happening because then wont saudi arabia and egypt etc want F22s?
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:15 PM
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I am in agreement, I doubt Israel will see any F-22's unless something changes with the crowd in Washington. They are so worried what the "Left Winged" Hollywood types and the Press are going to say about them they will never approve the sale. Affraid of not getting reelected so they can skim money under the table.

As for Australian F-22's - The F-22 is suposed to be a complete level above the current enemy fighters to be countered - i.e. the Russian FLANKER family - I imagine it will be able to handle it even in a "Bargin" strip downed version. The thing of it is without the "Extras" how long it will be superior to these threats and ones to come in the future.

Kinda supprised that Australia didn't lean more toward the "TYPHOON."
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Old 03-27-2008, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I am in agreement, I doubt Israel will see any F-22's unless something changes with the crowd in Washington. They are so worried what the "Left Winged" Hollywood types and the Press are going to say about them they will never approve the sale. Affraid of not getting reelected so they can skim money under the table.

As for Australian F-22's - The F-22 is suposed to be a complete level above the current enemy fighters to be countered - i.e. the Russian FLANKER family - I imagine it will be able to handle it even in a "Bargin" strip downed version. The thing of it is without the "Extras" how long it will be superior to these threats and ones to come in the future.

Kinda supprised that Australia didn't lean more toward the "TYPHOON."
Agreed Jester but they havent really said what aircraft there looking at apart from the F-35 , im preety sure there doing a review now though and hope the eurofighter comes up if the F-22 isnt available.
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Old 03-27-2008, 03:13 AM
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if america sells the f-22 and f-35 to anyone, israel will be among the first to recieve it, if not the first. espaicially now that the americans want to sign bigger and bigger arms deals with our neighbors like Saudi Arabia. Israel will insist that if America wants to sell our enemies (and potential enemies) new weapons that could further endanger Israel, that it should at least give us the means to retain our superiority.

right now i know that the reason israel hasnt gotten any f-35 fighter-bombers is because it insists to insert its own technology into the airplane (rafael stuff), espaicially since the american air force industry is among the best in teh world, with our missiles and equipment said to actually be better than the american stuff....


the problem with the f-22, is that it costs too much, and hordes of cheaper fighters could overwhelm it, and with out budget being around $15B and each f-22 costing around $120 million, can we really afford to put these into real hazards and possibly lose some?
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Old 03-27-2008, 03:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joejd12 View Post
if america sells the f-22 and f-35 to anyone, israel will be among the first to recieve it, if not the first. espaicially now that the americans want to sign bigger and bigger arms deals with our neighbors like Saudi Arabia. Israel will insist that if America wants to sell our enemies (and potential enemies) new weapons that could further endanger Israel, that it should at least give us the means to retain our superiority.

right now i know that the reason israel hasnt gotten any f-35 fighter-bombers is because it insists to insert its own technology into the airplane (rafael stuff), espaicially since the american air force industry is among the best in teh world, with our missiles and equipment said to actually be better than the american stuff....


the problem with the f-22, is that it costs too much, and hordes of cheaper fighters could overwhelm it, and with out budget being around $15B and each f-22 costing around $120 million, can we really afford to put these into real hazards and possibly lose some?
Incase you didnt no the F-35 is a multinational project witch israel hasnt sighned up for and alot of other countrys have so i think the countrys that are helping and have sighned up for it would get it first?dont you?
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Old 03-27-2008, 11:30 AM
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"
DEFENCE Minister Joel Fitzgibbon will step up pressure on the US to overturn its ban on the sale of the F-22 Raptor fighter, amid growing federal government concern about delays and cost increases affecting the Joint Strike Fighter program

Fitzgibbon is either a complete idiot or he is just trying to score cheap political points on the Liberal opposition party.

The USA will NOT sell the F22 to anyone, end of story.

The production line at present is to be SHUT DOWN after the production run of 183 F22's is reached.

The F35 is not only the best choice for Australia, its capabilities for putting ordnance on the target is unmatched by any other aircraft,including the F22.

The F22 is the golden standard of fighter aircraft and will totally annihlate any other fighter stupid enough to take it on. It is truly the only air dominance aircraft flying today and far in to the future.

The F35 along with Wedgetail and Jorn will provide Australia with an air defence that will be unmatched by any country in Asia, and that includes China.

It will also a true 5th generation system providing stealthy ingress and egress of target areas. This along with its precision bombing capabilities will provide any potential enemy a headache they won't want to cope with.

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Old 03-27-2008, 10:38 PM
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yep youre right chris, my mistake, but i do know that israel has been in negotiations with teh us to get the f-35 for quite some time now, and apparently the major challenge in that is that we want to put our own electronics equipment in there....
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Old 03-28-2008, 04:22 AM
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if the us gov was to sell or lease f-22's to anyone in the future israel would most likly be first inline, but the f-22 is like the b-2 strictly us armed forces only
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Old 10-01-2010, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [MakkabI] View Post
I hope Israel will receive some F-22!
I hope so too. One squadron of 24 planes would be more than enough to keep military supremacy in the region and deter any hostile attempt by Syria or Hezbollah.
I dont' have anything against F-35, but somehow i think that F-22 would be much better solution in order to keep air supremacy.
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Old 10-01-2010, 03:10 PM
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+ AMRAAM AIM-120 D, and PAK-FA pilots can kiss goodbye.
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Old 10-01-2010, 03:21 PM
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since when has PAK-FA been on our radar as a credible threat to Israel's security ?
none of our enemies can even dream of owning them at this point.

as for the export Raptors.
it would help keep air supremacy in the region for sure, but then so would the F-35 fighters if we could just install our own systems on them.
Python 5 or Derby missiles make just about any platform into a Air superiority powerhouse, so there is no particular need for the Raptors for that purpose.

the real advantage of Stealth fighters is in a SEAD role, and that role can be carried out just as well by the F-35's.
and once enemy air defenses have been suppressed, the F-15/16 can handle any other bird in the sky's of our immediate region.
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Old 10-01-2010, 04:42 PM
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If i'm correct, Israel will get right to instal their own radars in F-35 after those first 20 planes wich will be "100% american". Every next plane Israel purchase will be available for modifications to acquire IAF needs, only those first 20 won't.

As for PAK-FA, true, enemy can only dream of owning them at this point, since neither Russia will have them before 2015. But in future (10-15 years from now), Syria will probably acquire first planes of this type. Maybe Saudis as well...
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Old 10-01-2010, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damir View Post
If i'm correct, Israel will get right to instal their own radars in F-35 after those first 20 planes wich will be "100% american". Every next plane Israel purchase will be available for modifications to acquire IAF needs, only those first 20 won't.

As for PAK-FA, true, enemy can only dream of owning them at this point, since neither Russia will have them before 2015. But in future (10-15 years from now), Syria will probably acquire first planes of this type. Maybe Saudis as well...
having to buy the first 20 "of shelf" is a pain, but given that the main point of these planes is SEAD, we don't need them to be all that pimped.
if its air superiority we need, we've got our F-15I and F-16I for that.

and given that Syria even today can't afford the top of the line Russian fighters, its doubtful that they would be able to afford the PAK-FA.
even if they could, what difference would it made what kind of fighters we send against it ?
having fighters that are stealths themselves doesn't give you the ability to detect enemy stealths.

the Saudis buy american or Euro made weapons.
they won't but Russian fighters (and i doubt Russia would sell them any, given their close american ties)
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Old 10-01-2010, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
having fighters that are stealths themselves doesn't give you the ability to detect enemy stealths.

the Saudis buy american or Euro made weapons.
they won't but Russian fighters (and i doubt Russia would sell them any, given their close american ties)
Somehow, i think that saudis are expressing more interests in "rusian made" (T-90, anyone?). So who knows what will it be in the future. Maybe i'm wrong about it after all.

As for detecting stealth plane with stealth plane, my opinion is that IRST could do just fine.
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Old 10-01-2010, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damir View Post
Somehow, i think that saudis are expressing more interests in "rusian made" (T-90, anyone?). So who knows what will it be in the future. Maybe i'm wrong about it after all..
think about it.
do the russians really want the US engineers to have access to their new top of the line fighter ?
a fighter who's main new advantage is the high tech systems that allow it to avoid radar ?
because thats what selling these planes to Saudi arabia means.

Quote:
As for detecting stealth plane with stealth plane, my opinion is that IRST could do just fine.
i'm guessing that the Python missiles could probably do it.
and from what i heard, AEWC systems are also capable of detecting these kind of planes.

which was my point.
you don't need stealth fighters to kill stealth planes.
you just need planes armed with IR missiles.
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Old 10-01-2010, 08:32 PM
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I understand your point quite well... but i'm not sure that F-16Sufa and F-15I can be enough do deal with potential PAK-FA threat in the future with or without AEWC... Just compare PAK-FA general characteristics with those of F-15 and F-16. Stealth is not the only advance 5-th generation possess over 4-th generation jets.
IMHO, possession of F-35 is not a choice for IAF. It will eventually become obligation.

Btw. why IAF have only 25 F-15I? Is there some kind of restriction or what?
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Old 10-01-2010, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damir View Post
Btw. why IAF have only 25 F-15I? Is there some kind of restriction or what?
originally there was a restriction of 25 fighters.
then a few years later, Israel was again looking for new long range fighters, and ended up going with the F-16I.
the consideration being that while quality is very important, quantity is also a very big factor.
and since the F-16I are considerably less expensive, both in terms of buying and in terms of upkeep, they decided to just go with the F-16I.

that way, we can balance high quality with large numbers.
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Old 10-01-2010, 09:11 PM
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I agreed, quantity sure is very big factor. The more you have, it's better. ;) I think that all F-16s in IAF inventory should be eventually upgraded to Sufa standard. But i guess you can't spend money on all fronts. After all, 2.75 bn for F-35s is quite big amount of money for country that numbers 7.5 million residents.
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