Israel Military Forum

Welcome to the Israel Military Forum. You are currently viewing our Israel Forum as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, Image Forum and access our other features. By joining our Israel Military Forum you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so
Join Our Israel Community Today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.
Go Back   Israel Military Forum > Israel National security > Historical Israel-Arab wars
Register FAQ Pictures Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Historical Israel-Arab wars Discuss the strategies and the situation of the historical Israeli-Arab wars from 1948-1982 and it's implications on Israel.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-16-2015, 09:50 PM
Vonkrieg1 Vonkrieg1 is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3
Vonkrieg1 is on a distinguished road
Default Golan 1973

I'm an avid military history buff that has just recently started reading up on the Israeli-Arab wars since 1948. My focus is more on the military aspect of the wars and not so much on the political aspects.

At the moment, I'm really looking at the Golan in '73. I have a couple of questions that I have from my research and reading so far.

I've run into a few intriguing items that I would like to develop further, but can't seem to find anything definitive on them.

1) Home Guard: Does anyone know anything about the Home Guard in the Golan. I'm reading an account of 10 Super Shermans of the Home Guard supporting one of the bunkers along the Syrian border during the 6/7 Oct 1973 fighting. I would like to see if there is more out there concerning the deployment and utilization of the Home Guard during the war. Is there such a thing as the home guard or was the author more likely using a general term for reservists?

2) Tank Turrets as part of the Israeli bunker system: I'm going through some photos linked to Google Earth and I stumbled across a series of Patton turrets w/L7 105mm guns in what appears to be a defensive line just north of Tel Hermonet (northern shoulder of the Valley of Tears). I'm looking for any information on Israeli bunkers and if they actually used the turrets as defensive elements in 1973 along the Golan.

3) Israeli Anti-tank capability: Beyond LAWs and Bazookas, what were the standard Israeli infantry anti-tank weapons in 1973?

I have a couple more books coming my way on the Israeli Army, but even the very good stuff I have now doesn't really delve into the weeds to the degree I would like.

Thanks for taking your time to read this.

Regards,

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-16-2015, 10:47 PM
Paparock's Avatar
Paparock Paparock is offline
Dragon
Photobucket
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Southern California High Desert Mountains
Posts: 48,313
Paparock is on a distinguished road
Arrow The Yom Kippur War

The Yom Kippur War


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...y/1973toc.html

Israel's Wars & Operations:
The Yom Kippur War *


(October 1973)

Israel's Wars: Table of Contents | War of Independence (1948) | Six-Day War (1967)


Reference Information

Important Battles

International Response
Cease-Fire & Armistice





War Maps of the Sinai (top) and Golan Height (left)

*In Israel and the United States, the war is typically referred to as the Yom Kippur War. In the Muslim world, it is referred to it as the Ramadan War.
__________________
O Israel
The LORD bless you and keep you;
The LORD make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The LORD lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace.

Asymmetric Warfare It’s not just for the “Other Guys”

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-17-2015, 06:58 PM
Vonkrieg1 Vonkrieg1 is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3
Vonkrieg1 is on a distinguished road
Default

Thanks for the assist Paparock. After a quick scan, I'm not sure it answers my specific questions, but it does look like some good information to sort through on the various conflicts.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-18-2015, 03:48 PM
Knaur's Avatar
Knaur Knaur is offline
Super Moderator
Photobucket
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Punjab
Posts: 10,335
Knaur is on a distinguished road
Default

David of Galilee was a member who was a research historian on the forum, but he hasn't been posting much lately.
__________________
The wisdom of the ancients has been taught by the philosophers of Greece, but also by people called Jews in Syria, and by Brahmins in India
-Megasthenes, Greek Ambassador to India, 300 BC

Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian? - Walid Shoebat, PLO terrorist
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-23-2015, 12:19 AM
AEWHistory's Avatar
AEWHistory AEWHistory is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Trenton, NJ
Posts: 125
AEWHistory is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vonkrieg1 View Post
Thanks for the assist Paparock. After a quick scan, I'm not sure it answers my specific questions, but it does look like some good information to sort through on the various conflicts.
Hi Jim,

I'm a professor of history here in the USA. My speciality is military history, but my focus is really on things like the formation of deterrent capabilities, how the armed forces create identities, and where conflict and foreign policy intertwine. So I'm not personally specialized in some of the details of tactical weapons systems, but I know some people who are and some whom may be able to give you some leads. All this said, I wouldn't be surprised to find to major problems:

1. This is fairly obscure information with a tiny potential "market" of interested people. Consequently, it is entirely possible that no one has ever done the archive work on some of these subjects. That'd be a neat idea for you to do it if you know Hebrew, want to spend some time in Israel, and like picking through old historical materials that may not always be organized in any humanly coherent manner.

2. It is also possible that this information, or some of it, is still under some constraints. Given the touchy nature of the Golan and the necessity of defending it, I could completely understand if the layout of even old fortifications were not released. Consider: if the fields of fire were laid out nicely in 1973 then the same or similar fields of fire still exist today. After all, the Golan--barring an earthquake--isn't going to have any significant geographical changes. So I'd want to minimize things like where the turrets and bunkers were/are, how many are there, how they are laid out, and so on down the line.

I'm not discouraging you from trying, but keep your expectations in line. I've had projects where sometimes the material simply isn't there. It may no longer exist, may have been destroyed by negligence, viewed as unimportant, or viewed as too important and not released to public record.

Best of luck and if I can think of something more I'll check back,
Aaron
__________________
"I really don't mind if you sit this one out. My word's but a whisper--your deafness a SHOUT!
I may make you feel, but I can't make you think."
-opening lines to Thick as a Brick by Jethro Tull. Written by Ian Anderson (1972)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-08-2015, 04:21 PM
Vonkrieg1 Vonkrieg1 is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3
Vonkrieg1 is on a distinguished road
Default

Hello Aaron,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I kind of expected an answer like this. Unfortunately, I do not speak or understand Hebrew. I keep expanding my research on this subject through books, but unfortunately I've come to the conclusion that it is not documented, at least not in English. Looking at the Israeli side, there are gaps in the military struggle, but for the most part it is well laid out in many books. It is just not in the level of detail that I'm used to from World War Two history. For the Arabs, there are even larger holes that will probably never be filled in due to the secretive and fractured nature of the current Arab nations in regards to anything dealing with Israel.

I would love to go to the Golan, as well as a bunch of other historic military battlefields. I've traveled to Sekigahara (established the Shogunate), Iwo Jima, Pearl Harbor, and many Civil War Battlefields. I don't have any time in Europe, but I would love to see Waterloo, Kursk, Stalingrad, Normandy, Belgium, and Salerno.

I understand the security issue on the bunkers. I've come to the conclusion that the turrets are more than likely a post Yom Kippur War addition. Its more an analytical conclusion, than factual. I think the modern tank turrets ('73) were added after '73. From what I can surmise, the defensive fortifications were being worked in '73, but were not complete when the war broke out. As to fortifications, the northern portion was much further along than those in the South with expanded minefields and bunkers when the war broke out.

Using Google Earth, I can pinpoint most of the border posts along the purple line. Some still in use, others long abandoned. I love the fact that Google Earth embeds photos taken of the area. The views are spectacular and give a good feel for the long range line-of-sight as it transitions from the lower level Syrian area to the higher level Israeli positions. It also lays out the fortifications when I look closely for the tell-tale signs.

As to Israel's anti-tank capability, it is limited by the spending priorities and Israeli doctrine prior to the war. Israel put all their money in the Armored Corps (new tank engines, guns, optics, and training), with little going to the infantry or artillery. Most of the anti-tank capability is other tanks and the infantry is using old super-bazookas, recoilless rifles, and captured Soviet items. Most references say little as to the uage of the older pre-war ATGM capability on hand in the IDF. There appears to be a controversy concerning TOWs in '73. Most sources say they came into use after the war, but one Israeli General in interviews/book says they were used along the Suez after the airlift from US.

Thanks all for your feedback.

Jim
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-09-2015, 07:33 AM
Knaur's Avatar
Knaur Knaur is offline
Super Moderator
Photobucket
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Punjab
Posts: 10,335
Knaur is on a distinguished road
Default

Send a PM to David of Galilee, he is an Israeli research historian, he knows about these type of things, if he responds back you might be in luck.
__________________
The wisdom of the ancients has been taught by the philosophers of Greece, but also by people called Jews in Syria, and by Brahmins in India
-Megasthenes, Greek Ambassador to India, 300 BC

Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian? - Walid Shoebat, PLO terrorist
Reply With Quote
Israel Forum
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Israel Military Forum