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Historical Israel-Arab wars Discuss the strategies and the situation of the historical Israeli-Arab wars from 1948-1982 and it's implications on Israel.

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  #1  
Old 02-27-2013, 12:40 AM
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Default Soviet Union in the Six Day War

I'm reading up on Middle Eastern history and one of the things I don't get is why did the Soviets lie to Nasser regarding the non existent buildup of Israeli forces on the Egyptian border. So why did the Soviets want to provoke a war?
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:42 PM
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Read Foxbats over Dimona, it has the best explanation to date. Apparently, the Soviets wanted to provoke Israel into a preemptive attack, then use that as justification to intervene when a long, drawn-out war started. So they provoked the hostile situation, telling lies to both Egypt and Syria which caused them to carry out provocations.

Once they intervened, they could destroy the Dimona reactor with airstrikes. What they didn't count on was Israel's lightning victory and the rapid destruction of the Arab armies within days.

I'm not going to come out and say it's totally accurate, but it seems to be well-researched.
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:09 PM
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I would also recommend you do some research on this site regarding the war. There are posts from those of us who actually fought in that war.

(no, I was too young).
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:41 PM
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Suffice it to say that some of the most curious and pivotal events surrounding that war have never been part of popular knowledge or impressions. As the Monty Python crew might have said, the truth is a clump of plinths, and not the pillars we see.

My only problem with Foxbats Over Dimona is to ask, for whom is it a surprise or genuinely new revelation that the Soviet Union played a major role in the lead-up to the war, or that they may have actually planed an attack on the Dimona reactor, or even contemplated landing troops in Israel?

Think about it. Who was Israel's close ally then? No one. France abandoned Israel after losing the Algerian War, and focused on building ties with the Arab world. From the early 1960s to the Six-Day War, no one major power was an unequivocal friend. The US was selling some defensive weapons to Israel, but was also supplying Israel's sworn enemy Egypt, and the fence-sitting American ally Jordan. (Israel actually destroyed some US-funded infrastructure projects in Jordan, much to America's chagrin.) Johnson was cordial, but reserved in his approach to Israel, and often neutral in actual policy.

There was no one power that declared an intention to protect Israel's right to exist. The Soviet Union probably would have gotten no more than verbal condemnation for invading Israel.

Fortunately God and the Devil have different intentions.

Last edited by David of Galilee; 02-28-2013 at 04:03 PM..
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fezman92 View Post
I'm reading up on Middle Eastern history and one of the things I don't get is why did the Soviets lie to Nasser regarding the non existent buildup of Israeli forces on the Egyptian border. So why did the Soviets want to provoke a war?
Probably the same reasons why so many Jewish people fled the country in the mid 1990's. Israel was a tiny spec of self determination surrounded by ideological tyranny. The people who ran the U.S.S.R. found fellow like minded thinkers amongst the islamic elite. They were naturally more inclined to support the more dictatorial regimes in the region. Egypt though kind of fended off the soviets plans to inhabit places such as Egypt like they did eastern Europe. America did not want Israel to lose the war, but also did not want the oil rich islamic nations to hate America either. While America provided token aid and then after Israel has definitely won the war America started ramping up its aid, or delivery if supplies. Actually Jimmy Carter who gets all the credit for the camp david peace accords wanted more concessions from Israel but Carter's own incompetence made the leader of Egypt unhappy. Egypt went directly to Israel through another country's embassy to talk about a peace deal, then came in the American administration to take credit for "making it happen" as all democrats do. The U.S.S.R. was supplying both weapons and manpower to include their own pilots. The IAF shot them out of the sky, well the planes that made it off the ground in the first place.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:39 AM
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Basic to Soviet policy back then: win over 3rd world non-western countries. Too many Jews knew the inside of the Soviet Union, having lived in the western (non-Russian) "Pale of Jewish Settlement" at the fringes of the pre-communist Russian Empire. (Ukraine, Belarus, the Balto-Slavic republics, Moldova were all anti-Russian "captured nations".) Result was that Israel became a clearly anti-Soviet country. Non-western, partly socialist, but not susceptible to Soviet propaganda and manipulation.

The USSR was not going after a US ally in 1967, not only because Israel and the US were not allies then, but because it was a way to the hearts and minds of Israel-hating Egyptian leader Nasser.

Whereas, Egypt had a very flighty, emotional leader with no democratic propensities in Gamal Abdul Nasser. He could be consumed with anger and passions. He was bright, did some modernizing and reform, and was ambitious, and he wanted access to arms and development loans. Ironically, he genuinely wanted a better off population, but let his pan-Arab ambitions take hold. Some biographers suggest he was actually of Arab descent, and not just an Islamicized Egyptian.

All that left him open to clever Soviet diplomacy, which pandered to the worst in many 3rd world leaders. Soviet policy was firmly grounded in non-truth from the start, when the original democratic revolution was overthrown for the despotic rule of the elite by Lenin. So for all the ideological rhetoric, when Soviet diplomats visited 3rd world countries, all they had to offer was:

Guns 'n Gold

(And clunky industrial machinery--rarely good outside their military industries.)

Soviet foreign policy!
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Old 04-25-2014, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David of Galilee View Post
Suffice it to say that some of the most curious and pivotal events surrounding that war have never been part of popular knowledge or impressions. As the Monty Python crew might have said, the truth is a clump of plinths, and not the pillars we see.

My only problem with Foxbats Over Dimona is to ask, for whom is it a surprise or genuinely new revelation that the Soviet Union played a major role in the lead-up to the war, or that they may have actually planed an attack on the Dimona reactor, or even contemplated landing troops in Israel?

Think about it. Who was Israel's close ally then? No one. France abandoned Israel after losing the Algerian War, and focused on building ties with the Arab world. From the early 1960s to the Six-Day War, no one major power was an unequivocal friend. The US was selling some defensive weapons to Israel, but was also supplying Israel's sworn enemy Egypt, and the fence-sitting American ally Jordan. (Israel actually destroyed some US-funded infrastructure projects in Jordan, much to America's chagrin.) Johnson was cordial, but reserved in his approach to Israel, and often neutral in actual policy.

There was no one power that declared an intention to protect Israel's right to exist. The Soviet Union probably would have gotten no more than verbal condemnation for invading Israel.

Fortunately God and the Devil have different intentions.
I would not go that far. USSR did not even try to invade Israel in Six Day war. Either because of USA or because USSR know that Israel had 2 nuclear bombs. It very possible USSR though Arab states win accord all estimates they were going to. I hate put this way Israel air force able to rearm planes in 5 minute time compare to NATO took 15 minutes.Fact it might take few minute Israel air force reach must of their targets. Mean Israel have each combat aircaft do something like twice the amount of fighting in the air by average. It would help even the playing field combine fact they best train air force in the world.
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Old 04-25-2014, 04:37 PM
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Of course the USSR did not invade Israel, and probably had no intention. But I can assure you the US was about to jump into the fray and take up our cause. Israel was a Cold War factor, mostly. The US government had no sentimental or Biblical urge to protect Israel because it was the right thing to do.

Yes, I think the USSR thought the Arabs were going to smash Israel. Frankly--and this is very important--even Israeli commanders were surprised at our massive and decisive victory.

But no question--the Arabs squandered their Soviet equipment, and reveals many major flaws in their military thinking, their discipline, and their planning. Hence 1973 was a whole new cricket match.
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Old 04-25-2014, 05:32 PM
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Exclamation G_d is Forever Vigilant

In my humble opinion the reason the U.S.S.R. broke apart is that they supported the enemies of Israel during all their attacks against Israel. Thus, G_d cursed the U.S.S.R. because it cursed Israel. Now the U.S.S.R. is no more. Interesting how that works isn't it.


He remembers His covenant forever,
The word He commanded
to a thousand generations,
The covenant He made with Abraham,
And the oath He swore to Isaac,
And confirmed it to Jacob as a decree,
To Israel for an everlasting covenant,
Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan,
as your allotted inheritance.” *
-Psalm 105:8-11
God chose a specific people - the Jews,
And gave them a specific land - Canaan.
This CHOICE and this TITLE DEED are ETERNAL.
Never depend on the USA because throughout history it has proven NOT to be a reliable dependable partner. How many nations have they left to be slaughtered by their enemies after they swore an oath to defend them? One does not have to look any further than the treaties the American government signed with the Indian Tribes that the U.S. Government broke each and every one without exception to understand the lack of fidelity found in so many of Americas national leaders. That is especially true of the Obama administration! Today America's leaders argue semantics such as what the meaning of what the meaning of the word is is. Men lie and deceive; look at Obama.
Only G_d never changes and His word lasts all eternity!
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The LORD make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you;
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Last edited by Paparock; 04-25-2014 at 06:00 PM..
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