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Australia, Oceania Military News from Australia, New Zealand and Tazmania :D

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  #21  
Old 10-01-2010, 10:13 PM
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plus
we haven't faced an enemy who we needed to defeat in the air in almost 30 years.
our enemies have learned that fighting us with armies is a losing proposition, and have switched to terrorist gerilla tactics instead.
and for that, we don't need stealths.
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  #22  
Old 10-02-2010, 03:06 AM
haamimhagolan haamimhagolan is offline
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Originally Posted by Damir View Post
I hope so too. One squadron of 24 planes would be more than enough to keep military supremacy in the region and deter any hostile attempt by Syria or Hezbollah.
I dont' have anything against F-35, but somehow i think that F-22 would be much better solution in order to keep air supremacy.
Just to clarify: The last copies of the F-22 are due to be delivered in early 2011. Bearing in mind that long lead items for those aircraft were pleaced on order two years ago, that means that some of the production tooling for those aircraft has already been mothballed. The cost of re-certifying the production processes for an airplane like that are so steep that it pretty much guarantees that no more will ever be built - for Israel or anyone else.
 
I do agree with you however that the F-22 is a far superior air superiority platform in comparison to the F-35 - but then again it should be. The F-22 was designed as a pure air superiority fighter. Any air-to-ground capabilities were an afterthought. It was designed to dominate in every corner of the air-to-air arena. In terms of both wing loading and thrust loading it's head and shoulders above anything else flying. Add to that its sensor suite and low observable characteristics, and it there's nothing in the skies that it cannot handle.
 
The F-35 on the other hand, was developed as the "Joint Strike Fighter". It was intended as an air-to-ground platform first, with a secondary air-to-air role. More importantly, it was designed as a "joint" platform - to be shared between the USAF, USN and USMC. This meant that the design is a compromise that had to accomodate the requirements of all three services. The USMC requirements in particular - to build a short-take-off and vertical-landing (STOVL) replacement for the Harrier - meant that the size, payload and range of the F-35 had to be compromised to meet this need. The F-35 is not the kind of strike fighter that Israel would have selected if they really had a choice. It doesn't have the payload and range of the F-15I or F-16I fighter-bombers. A better fit towards meeting Israel's requirements would be the proposed Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) figher that is envisioned to enter production sometime between 2025 an 2030, as a replacement for the US Navy's Super Hornets, and the US F-15E. Right now, however, the F-35 is the only low observable fighter available to Israel - which is why they are going ahead and buying it.
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  #23  
Old 10-02-2010, 03:07 AM
haamimhagolan haamimhagolan is offline
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
since when has PAK-FA been on our radar as a credible threat to Israel's security ?
Israel does need to keep the PAK-FA on its radar as a long term threat. Sometime after 2020 the Russians will no doubt be selling them to Syria, Iran or whomever their client state in the region is at that time. I agree, however, that Israel does not need to rush to respond to this threat today - which is why I believe that this mad rush to sign a contract for the F-35 today was a mistake. Israel is not getting the kind of deal that they need under this administration. They would have been better off waiting until after 2012, and insisting that Israeli EW systems be installed on the initial batch of aircraft - not settling for some vague promise that additional Israeli electronics might be included in later examples.
 
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
plus we haven't faced an enemy who we needed to defeat in the air in almost 30 years.
our enemies have learned that fighting us with armies is a losing proposition, and have switched to terrorist gerilla tactics instead.
and for that, we don't need stealths.
That same line of reasoning led to the mistaken belief that the IDF's infantry and armored corps no longer needed to fight conventional wars. Training budgets - particularly for reserves - were slashed, eventually leading to the abysmal performance of Israel's ground forces during the 2006 Lebanon War. In short: Israel has to prepare for every eventuality. It is only a matter of time until another Nasser appears on the world stage, intent on making a name for himself by wiping Israel off the map. Israel cannot afford to assume that its neighbors have given up on their dream of conquest. They haven't. It's only been delayed.
 
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Originally Posted by Damir View Post
If i'm correct, Israel will get right to instal their own radars in F-35 after those first 20 planes wich will be "100% american". Every next plane Israel purchase will be available for modifications to acquire IAF needs, only those first 20 won't.
The Israelis couldn't even convince the US to allow them to install an Israeli radar in the F-16I. This was a sore point in the negotiations for the F-16I sale - particularly since the US-supplied radar turned out to have inferior ground mapping capabilities in comparison to its Israeli counterpart. Integrating an Israeli radar into a US-supplied avionics suite would have required a level of cooperation (and code sharing) that the US was not prepared to engage in. Doing so would have given Israeli developers a competitive edge in many ongoing campaigns to sell upgrade packages to F-16s flown by a variety of air forces worldwide.
 
The chances that the US might allow Israel to integrate their own radar into the F-35 are therefore nil. In fact, the Israeli negotiators didn't even try to raise this prospect. They instead focused on the installation of an Israeli electronic warefare suite into the F-35 - something that the Israelis did do for their F-15I, F-16I and other fighter purchases, and something that the US refused to agree to for the F-35.
 
In terms of radar technology, Elta might claim to be world class - but they also lag behind the US in certain, critical areas. The US is the only nation to have developed and fielded an AESA fighter radar system into active service. Everyone else (including the Europeans, Russians and Israelis) are still working on similar accomplishments. In terms of electronic warfare technology, however, Israeli developers are every bit as accomplished (some would say more accomplished) as their US counterparts. An Israeli EW suite also places the future of Israel's EW capabilities firmly in Israeli hands - not the whims of a potentially fickle US President. This is a big deal for Israel, which is why I (and many others) believe that it was a mistake for Israel to accept a batch of F-35s without first getting this fundamental disagreement cleared up.


 
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  #24  
Old 10-02-2010, 03:08 AM
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As for detecting stealth plane with stealth plane, my opinion is that IRST could do just fine.
IRST is like looking through the sky through a straw. It fundamentally lacks the broad field of vision and search capabilities needed to detect another aircraft at a meaningful range - unless it is already being queued by another system (like a radar). There are means for defeating stealth technology - but they are expensive, and require a more net-centric air defense system than anyone out there currently has today.
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
and from what i heard, AEWC systems are also capable of detecting these kind of planes.
No, they're not. The principals of stealth rely primarily on diverting reflected radar signals away from the transmitting radar. AEW systems might have a higher power output, but they will suffer from the same shortcomings as any other conventional radar. Most practical methods for detecting very low observable objects rely on a network of transmitters and sensors, which use the radar echoes reflected from other radar emitters to determine the location of a "stealth" aircraft. This kind of information would then need to be transmitted to a missile system (surface-to-air or air-to-air) by a secure data-link, which could then be directed to the last known location of the opposing aircraft. Only when it reaches the terminal phase of its flight could such a missile then rely on an imaging infrared or similar sensor to make its final lock on the target, and home in for the kill.


Should Israel be investing in the necessary technology to defeat stealth? Absolutely. Between cruise missiles, UAV's and eventual Russian and Chinese stealth fighters (not to mention those F-35s that the US intends to sell to Turkey), the Israelis need to have a counter-stealth capability in their pocket. But no one should be under any illusions that this is going to come easily, or cheaply. That's one more reason why a contract to buy the F-35 should have been put on the back burner - to allow more resources to be devoted to counter-stealth technologies.
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  #25  
Old 10-02-2010, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by haamimhagolan View Post


The USMC requirements in particular - to build a short-take-off and vertical-landing (STOVL) replacement for the Harrier - meant that the size, payload and range of the F-35 had to be compromised to meet this need. The F-35 is not the kind of strike fighter that Israel would have selected if they really had a choice. It doesn't have the payload and range of the F-15I or F-16I fighter-bombers. A better fit towards meeting Israel's requirements would be the proposed Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) figher that is envisioned to enter production sometime between 2025 an 2030, as a replacement for the US Navy's Super Hornets, and the US F-15E. Right now, however, the F-35 is the only low observable fighter available to Israel - which is why they are going ahead and buying it.
If i'm correct, there were some rumors that Israel is going to purchase those STOVL F-35B? Somehow i think that wouldn't be bad solution either, considering what danger those enemy rockets could possess for IAF bases and airports in the future.

Last edited by Damir; 10-02-2010 at 08:13 AM..
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  #26  
Old 10-02-2010, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by haamimhagolan View Post

That same line of reasoning led to the mistaken belief that the IDF's infantry and armored corps no longer needed to fight conventional wars. Training budgets - particularly for reserves - were slashed, eventually leading to the abysmal performance of Israel's ground forces during the 2006 Lebanon War. In short: Israel has to prepare for every eventuality. It is only a matter of time until another Nasser appears on the world stage, intent on making a name for himself by wiping Israel off the map. Israel cannot afford to assume that its neighbors have given up on their dream of conquest. They haven't. It's only been delayed.
its exactly what i meant.
we face new threats today then what we did 30 years ago.
we should be devoting more efforts at countering the new arab doctorine (missiles, guerrilla, and terrorism) rather then spending billions on fighters who's use would be limited.
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  #27  
Old 10-02-2010, 01:10 PM
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If i'm correct, there were some rumors that Israel is going to purchase those STOVL F-35B? Somehow i think that wouldn't be bad solution either, considering what danger those enemy rockets could possess for IAF bases and airports in the future.
They have confirmed that the initial batch of aircraft will be F-35A models. There is still talk that Israel might want to purchase the F-35B model at a later date. The problem with the B-model is that it sacrifices range and payload (aboard an airplane that already has inadequate range and payload), and it costs at least 30% more per aircraft (and that's just the up-front purchase cost - STOVL engines will also wear out faster, leading to higher maintenance costs).
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  #28  
Old 10-02-2010, 01:57 PM
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My opinion is that IAF should have possess mixed combination of F-35A and F-35B (at least 30 jets of F-35B). There's no need for long range aircrafts against Hezbollah and Syria targets. As for payload, i think that Small Diametar Boms can solve that problem. At least at some point. ;)
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  #29  
Old 10-02-2010, 02:01 PM
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Hasn't US congress turned down F-22 production?
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  #30  
Old 10-02-2010, 02:07 PM
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It is, but that doesn't mean they can't lift embargo for export. After all, US plan to start retiring F-22 in 2025 (strange decision), so i don't see why not sell them to allies like Israel or Japan.
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  #31  
Old 10-02-2010, 03:06 PM
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I do agree. We should get F-22.
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  #32  
Old 10-02-2010, 05:23 PM
haamimhagolan haamimhagolan is offline
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It is, but that doesn't mean they can't lift embargo for export. After all, US plan to start retiring F-22 in 2025 (strange decision), so i don't see why not sell them to allies like Israel or Japan.
As I pointed out before, F-22 production shuts down completely in 2011. This is not about lifting an embargo. There will be no new F-22s produced, and the ones that the USAF has today will likely receive a life extension program beginning in 2025. They will be retiring their remaining F-15C's by then - and are not going to have the spare budget to replace the F-22s at the same time. By the time the US actually retires the surviving F-22 airframes in 2035 or so, there won't be any flightworthy hours left on them.
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  #33  
Old 10-02-2010, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by WABA View Post
The F35 along with Wedgetail and Jorn will provide Australia with an air defence that will be unmatched by any country in Asia, and that includes China.
chinese are already working on 5th generation fighter fighter aircraft, Indians will receive their FGFA by 2015- both can challenge australia
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  #34  
Old 10-18-2012, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by neilay View Post
chinese are already working on 5th generation fighter fighter aircraft, Indians will receive their FGFA by 2015- both can challenge australia
India, Australia and China do not have conflicting interests that can lead to skirmishes in the air in near future. In fact at the moment, keeping the IOR shipping lanes safe is priority for all three.
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