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Navy Forum Israeli Navy discussion, submarines, frigates and Israeli naval forces + Navy's from other nations.

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  #21  
Old 02-12-2007, 10:02 PM
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Iran can have a failure rate of 99%, and the 5 speedboats that would get through would be enough to give the US Navy a black eye. The Iranians will not attack the US Navy in the Indian Ocean. The will attack in the more confinded waters of the Gulf. Do something like a Death Ride against the US carriers with what they have left of an airforce. In hopes of drawing air support and air cover from an indivigual ship off the Iranian coast. Then launch their speedboats in hopes of overhelming one ship. The Iranians thinking that sinking one ship would be enough to cause the American public to call for an end to attacks since they have show the US Navy is "vulnerable".
The thing is that the US Navy may not commit they ships to just a few miles off the Iranian coast in the case of a raid. The Iranian's can not go charging accross the Gulf without being shot like fish in a barrel. They need the Americans to accomadate them by moving to just off the Iranian coast. As they would have to if it was a true invassion.
Just like terror attacks on land, the Iranian's only have to be lucky once. And we in the West have to be vigilant all the time in the area if there is conflict.
Do you seriously think we are stupid, IF hostilities breakout there will be no need to enter the Gulf with a Carrier Battle Group, we can launch Alfa strikes from the IO with no problem, and not have to worry about anything counter attacts. We will systematically take the Iranian military apart following our standard operating procedures.

We are not going to risk our carriers when we don't have to. And a Death Ride for the Iranian Airforce would not last long. The only chance they would have would be a sneak attack but even then they would pay a high price. Because we have a lot of Carriers. Then the USAF would have a go at them.

The scenerio you paint is if we were complete idiots and we had our head up our collective A$$e$. Which I assure you we don't.
  #22  
Old 02-13-2007, 02:54 AM
Birmingham Birmingham is offline
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Where did I say where a carrier task group would be sent into the gulf. I did not. Show me where I said that. But some ships will have to enter the Gulf. If just to escort the shipping needed to maintain supplys to forces in Iraq. Most of our Iraqi supplys still come by ship, specially heavy equiptment.
The Iranians will be willing to sacrifice 500 speedboats and their two man crews and probibly their entire airforce if they can get one shot at an American warship. They can not win a military victory, so all they can do is hope for a political/propaganda win. A damaged, or heven forbid, a sunk US Navy ship is going to be shown all over the world.
What I was talking about with an Iranian Airforce Death Ride is exactly that. Like at Juteland where the Germans were willing to sacrifice their battlecruisers to ensure the survivial of the rest of their fleet, Iran could try to cause an deverson to draw the navial aircraft in to protect their carriers. While at the same time try to make a one-off effort against a single ship in the Gulf. And a Death Ride it would be. With the Iranian ground crews waiting in vain for any returning planes. But it may give the Iranians time to try to pull something.
As far as the USAF helping to protect, that depends on availability of bases in the lower end of the Gulf. The Saudi's and the Emerates may or may not be in a position to allow basing of the USAF in the area near the enterance of the Gulf. Where any action is more likely to happen. So in the southern end of the Gulf it may be solely up to the USN to defend its self.
But the whole point is that Iran needs to be lucky once and the Navy only needs to be unlucky once.


p.s. I have several friends on DD-51s. And those are the ships that would be deployed in independant operations. And I am hoping that the Iranians do not pull some kind of rabbit out of the hat.
  #23  
Old 02-14-2007, 02:13 AM
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I have spent most of my career at sea and we are pretty darn smart, the truth is that Iran can close down the strait for a short periond of time, no force on earth can stop the USN from re-opening the strait in a few weeks. The price Iran would pay for a very short lived "victory" would be astounding. Of course there would be the od mines problems but in the end we will have our way.
  #24  
Old 02-20-2007, 09:15 PM
The ETHIOPIAN The ETHIOPIAN is offline
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^^^^ iran also has sunburn missile that could severly damage or even sink a battle ship................... but i dont think the iranians would be stupid enough to challange the us navy head to head.......because they will get smashed......... but if they combine suicide speed boats with anti ship missiles and heavy artilary( depending how close the u.s navy get to the iranian coast) i think they can sink a couple of battleships.
  #25  
Old 02-20-2007, 09:37 PM
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Either way it comes back to Iran as being behind the act.If Iran strikes in a terrorist style attack it just shows more cowardice.I wold hope if Iran has the balls to take on any country it should at least take responcibility for its action instead of lieing and hideing behind its groups of radical Shia militias.Terrorist attacts are proof of a weakness.But maybe thats the best radical muslims can do.And then turn around and play innocent,dening they had anything to do with such acts.
  #26  
Old 02-20-2007, 11:12 PM
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You people amaze me, 5 percent get through, and the USN loses one or two ships and you say the USN was defeated, that would be very acceptible losses considering the pulverizing Iran would take in response. Listen to yourselves, if war comes and we lose a few ships so what. Sorry for the loss of lives on our ships but war is war. What if in WW Two we lost a few ships and backed off. Do you have any understanding of total war?

How could winning a major sea engagement and losing a few ships be a defeat?

What in your mind is victory! Totally defeating your enemy with out any casualties? Well it is not going to happen, in war your going to take hits.
  #27  
Old 02-21-2007, 09:17 PM
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Well, but this is exactly the problem. Look at what is happening in Iraq. Compared to any recent wars our nation fought in the past, the number of casualties is very low and the actual achievements are very high (it took hundreds of thousands of dead American soldiers to finally win WWII and still tens of thousands in Vietnam, without ever winning that war). In Iraq we are at 3000 casualties and we have effectively erased the hostile government, pulverized their army and so on.

Yet, in public opinion as well as in political circles everyone thinks we are losing that war.

And this is what makes me wonder: You are totally right, that an Iranian suicide attack on a cruiser or any other ship would, even if successful, not be a defeat at all in military terms. But I fear that to our politicians and their state of mind it would be. That is why I fear that, after such an attack, they would rather retreat than retaliate.

You see, I never once doubted the ability of our navy, but I very much doubt the willingness of our politicians to really wage war when they would have to.
  #28  
Old 02-21-2007, 09:57 PM
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Very true Topmaul.Just look at the famous battle for Iwo Jima.The US had 26,000 casualties and of that almost 7000 were killed (22,000 dead Japs).The battle was just over a month long,and all that for an island that was was only 7.5 miles!

The dead US soldiers from the Iraq war are a very small number.And if you took away the cowardly IEDs that number would be reduced by 2/3.
  #29  
Old 03-12-2007, 11:32 AM
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America would win thats obvious, but we dont attack siblings.
  #30  
Old 03-12-2007, 01:06 PM
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The Only thing i beleive in Iran Inventory which is capable to give Tough time is the Shkal torpedo and Sunburn

Within short gulf of hormuz then Yes. The Iran Navy will give atleast some resitance.
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  #31  
Old 03-14-2007, 05:18 PM
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I dont think this suicide speed boat is a real threat. The navy have so many options. There is the Israeli unmaned radio control costal patrol boat armed with a heavy machine gun. Relitivly these are extremly cheap and dozens of these would pack so much fire power that no suicide speed boats could get through. Just think about it for a second, even with out these, how are the speed boats going to get through? how many apaches and cobras does the US navy have? Enough to protect its ships from some speed boats! Remember that the US ships will be miles off coast and their radar will be tracking every boat in the surrounding. How do you propose that Iran could possibly put together a large fleet of speed boats with out being spotted?
  #32  
Old 03-15-2007, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *titanium* View Post
I dont think this suicide speed boat is a real threat. The navy have so many options. There is the Israeli unmaned radio control costal patrol boat armed with a heavy machine gun. Relitivly these are extremly cheap and dozens of these would pack so much fire power that no suicide speed boats could get through. Just think about it for a second, even with out these, how are the speed boats going to get through? how many apaches and cobras does the US navy have? Enough to protect its ships from some speed boats! Remember that the US ships will be miles off coast and their radar will be tracking every boat in the surrounding. How do you propose that Iran could possibly put together a large fleet of speed boats with out being spotted?

The Navy doesn't have a single apache or cobra.. The Marines have a few cobras, though.
  #33  
Old 03-15-2007, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
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The Navy doesn't have a single apache or cobra.. The Marines have a few cobras, though.
The aircraft carriers dont have helicopters? Is that a joke?
  #34  
Old 03-15-2007, 11:11 PM
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They have helicopters, but not your typical ground combat helicopters as in the army and in the marines. Helicopters on carriers or other surface ships are used for transport, search-and-rescue missions and anti-submarine warfare. Therefore they tend to be bigger, less manouverable and very differently armed than ground-combat helicopters.
  #35  
Old 03-16-2007, 07:11 AM
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Do aircraft carriers have any guns near the waterline, because if the guns are all on deck it certainly leaves them vunrable if a small boat can get up close.
  #36  
Old 04-04-2007, 09:35 PM
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[quote=The ETHIOPIAN;8565but if they combine suicide speed boats with anti ship missiles and heavy artilary i think they can sink a couple of battleships.[/quote]

All our BB's are in mothballs, but if they weren't, a suicide boat like they used on the Cole would do nothing more than scorch the paint. Those ships had 16" of armor at the waterline.

titanium, no one in a motorboat is going to get close to a US carrier. They are not just out there floating around by themselves, they are part of a battle group, and are protected by many other ships, including guided missle cruisers, destroyers and frigates, as well as nuclear attack submarines. A small boat would have to get past all those ships to get to the CVN. And those cruisers and destroyers have Aegis systems on them, that can stop a veritable barrage of anti-missles. Remember, these weapons systems were developed during the cold war, when the threat was barrages of anti-ship missles lauched from Soviet bombers.

And if somehow, they managed to get a missle through and hit a carrier, all they would really do is **** OFF the US Navy, which is a very unwise thing to do, and they would soon find that out. And hitting a US carrier would **** off the American public enough to take the dogs off the leash. Iran would get a bloody nose like its never dreamed off.

The question is, is Iran really stupid, or are they just posturing for the rest of the Arab world?
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Last edited by Mad Dog 7.62; 04-04-2007 at 10:24 PM..
  #37  
Old 04-06-2007, 02:01 AM
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You people amaze me, do you have any idea how powerful the USN is? So what a ship is lost the counter strike would be massive. So the USN gets a black eye? Big deal yep got in a fight got a black eye yep, the other guy was obliterated!!!!! And is in a body cast, some how I lost the fight because of a lucky sucker punch landed. Amazing.

Force on Force confrontation between the Islamic Republic of Iran and the United States Navy and Air Force. This is not going to come out well for Iran, I'm a realist and understand that we will take some casualties, maybe more than would be comfortable, but in the end we would win the battle, in a desisive manor.

To be honest I was never a fan of sending Carriers into the Persian Gulf I just think it's too restricting A Carrier Battle Group needs room.
  #38  
Old 04-07-2007, 02:45 AM
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I don't think anyone here disagrees with you on the outcome of force against force. It is just that some doubt the political will of our government to let loose the force we have.

But to the other topic, I was wondering, too, why anyone would send a carrier group into such a small pond as the gulf. Especially when you do have land bases for planes in the area. Feels to me like sending an Abrams tank into a narrow alley between highrises.
  #39  
Old 04-07-2007, 12:56 PM
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I think it is a Because we Can situation. The USN is designed to fight at sea and to project power inland, not to fight in restriced waters, but we can adapt our tactics to do it, for example operating a SeaWolf in shallow waters is way more submarine that you really need but you can function just need to adapt equipment and tactics to the enviornment.
  #40  
Old 04-09-2007, 03:16 AM
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ah, I love that answer. I love an army or a navy who simply says: Because I can. Reminds me of an exercise a long time ago in Germany where I had a couple of tanks run over an enemy position in a move that was outside of traditional tactics. When another officer asked me why I did that I answered: why not? We can do it.

American armed forces always should be in such a position. We should never let our our politicians put us in a position that we have to say: sorry, we can't.


BTW, did you read today that the former head of the Iraqi army said, the reason Iraq's army was overrun so quickly was that they were not prepared because they never expected us to be able to attack as forcefully as we did. Hehe. We did it because we could.
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