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  #1  
Old 08-07-2010, 02:51 PM
neilay neilay is offline
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Default New fighters for Indian Air Force

After exhaustive trials of six fighter jets, Indian Air Force (IAF) has made its choice clear to the Government on the kind of fighter jets needed. Frontrunners for the force are French fighter Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon built by the European consortium. Bernhard Gerwert, Chief, EADS, says “If you are taking into account the portfolio of EADS we can bring the bridge between civil aviation and military aviation.” But the Americans and Russians have lost out. Boeing’s F18 no longer a frontrunner and Sweden’s Gripen too falling off the Indian radar.

Despite MiG 35s big thunder, its engine failing to impress while the F-16, according to the IAF has no future. Another reason favouring Rafale and Eurofighter is political. Thomas Matussek, German Ambassador, “We regard India as a strategic security partner and this is why we do not insist on an end user monitoring agreement period.” So when the mother of all defence deals is signed for the 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft either Rafale or the Eurofighter will fly away with the Rs 42,000 crore deal.

http://www.timesnow.tv/New-fighters-...ow/4351233.cms
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  #2  
Old 08-07-2010, 02:51 PM
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great news for Indian air force..... but not official so.....
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  #3  
Old 08-07-2010, 04:28 PM
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Neilay (or other Indians)--can you help me understand the Indian Air Forces long term acquisition plans ? I ask this because there must be at least five different Indian projects that are running concurrently.

1) the Su-30, which I think you are acquiring now.
2) the Tejas, which is entering production.
3) the acquisition you discuss above.
4) the PAK-FA/FGFA.
5) And finally, the AMCA

I haven't seen this much fighter plane activity since the 50s, when the US produced the "Century Series".
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Old 08-08-2010, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by SpacemanSpiff View Post

I haven't seen this much fighter plane activity since the 50s, when the US produced the "Century Series".
Spiff,

Thats because InAF doesn't have an excellent bomber fleet like the USAF to call upon, nor does our military doctrine envision one in near future, so multirole aircrafts sometimes have to perform ground attack duties too, like in the Kargil War.

The one discussed above is the MRCA acquisition, been in the dock for a long time now, it was actually supposed to be a stopgap measure to replace the ageing MiG fleet before the Tejas stepped in, but horrific delays in both projects have left the InAF much below its sanctioned strength.

As for MCA, PAK-FA, I ll believe it when I see a squadron deployed.

If you compare our aircraft inventory with that of Pakistan and China, you ll see why we are eager to boost our air power.
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Old 08-08-2010, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpacemanSpiff View Post
Neilay (or other Indians)--can you help me understand the Indian Air Forces long term acquisition plans ? I ask this because there must be at least five different Indian projects that are running concurrently.

1) the Su-30, which I think you are acquiring now.
2) the Tejas, which is entering production.
3) the acquisition you discuss above.
4) the PAK-FA/FGFA.
5) And finally, the AMCA

I haven't seen this much fighter plane activity since the 50s, when the US produced the "Century Series".
dude...except of FGFA and AMCA all are currently in production or at very advanced stage....

you are right when you say that there is too much of activity going on in Indian airforce....thats not just because of our depleting fleet but also because of our economic growth-new attack helicopters,transport aircraft are some examples....
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Old 08-08-2010, 11:22 PM
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Guys, I wasn't suggesting there was "too much activity". If anything, I am impressed by it. And I certainly wasn't questioning your need for these aircraft to deal with the threat you face.

Rather, I really was just asking how this all fits together--that is, what unique contribution each group adds to the whole ? For example, why not just buy more Su-30s rather than purchase any Rafales or Eurofighters ? My understanding is that the Su-30 is a far larger aircraft than the Rafale, but nevertheless costs about half of what the Rafale does.
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Old 08-09-2010, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpacemanSpiff View Post
Neilay (or other Indians)--can you help me understand the Indian Air Forces long term acquisition plans ? I ask this because there must be at least five different Indian projects that are running concurrently.

1) the Su-30, which I think you are acquiring now.
2) the Tejas, which is entering production.
3) the acquisition you discuss above.
4) the PAK-FA/FGFA.
5) And finally, the AMCA

I haven't seen this much fighter plane activity since the 50s, when the US produced the "Century Series".
Brother,the basic priority of InAF is indegenization. The Combat fleet of InAF are decreasing at an alarming rate. Indian industry is still not mature enough to manufacture fighters at a faster rate. So,they are buying jets from other countries. But at the same time they are making sure that in the process of buying stuff,we dont kill indigenous projects. Su-30MKI is license produced. Tejas is a point defence indigenous fighter. MMRCA is a stop gap measure to make up for the lost/old platforms. FGFA is as u know a JV with russia. AMCA is a 5th gen indigenous fighter .
BTW,you forgot to mention AURA uav.
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Old 08-09-2010, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by SpacemanSpiff View Post
Guys, I wasn't suggesting there was "too much activity". If anything, I am impressed by it. And I certainly wasn't questioning your need for these aircraft to deal with the threat you face.

Rather, I really was just asking how this all fits together--that is, what unique contribution each group adds to the whole ? For example, why not just buy more Su-30s rather than purchase any Rafales or Eurofighters ? My understanding is that the Su-30 is a far larger aircraft than the Rafale, but nevertheless costs about half of what the Rafale does.
Yupp..i too love to see more MKI's but the thing is InAF is becoming more like a 2nd russian air force. Mig-21, Mig-27, Mig-29, Su-30MKI are current fighters. There are several projects in the pipeline as well like FGFA,Indo-Russian MRTA to name a few. India,IMO,is afraid to put all eggs in one basket. Moreover,India has an advantage to lay it's hands on the Russian as well as the western platforms. MMRCA is going to be more of a political decision rather than a technical one. The winner would be a strategic partner as well.
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Old 08-09-2010, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by neilay View Post
After exhaustive trials of six fighter jets, Indian Air Force (IAF) has made its choice clear to the Government on the kind of fighter jets needed. Frontrunners for the force are French fighter Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon built by the European consortium. Bernhard Gerwert, Chief, EADS, says "If you are taking into account the portfolio of EADS we can bring the bridge between civil aviation and military aviation." But the Americans and Russians have lost out. Boeing’s F18 no longer a frontrunner and Sweden’s Gripen too falling off the Indian radar.
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Originally Posted by neilay View Post
 
Despite MiG 35s big thunder, its engine failing to impress while the F-16, according to the IAF has no future. Another reason favouring Rafale and Eurofighter is political. Thomas Matussek, German Ambassador, "We regard India as a strategic security partner and this is why we do not insist on an end user monitoring agreement period." So when the mother of all defence deals is signed for the 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft either Rafale or the Eurofighter will fly away with the Rs 42,000 crore deal.

http://www.timesnow.tv/New-fighters-...ow/4351233.cms
Thanks for sharing. An interesting article, if true. I haven't seen anyone else in the press confirm this report, however. I'm not convinced that this seemingly never-ending contest is anywhere close to being closed.
 
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Yupp..i too love to see more MKI's but the thing is InAF is becoming more like a 2nd russian air force. Mig-21, Mig-27, Mig-29, Su-30MKI are current fighters. There are several projects in the pipeline as well like FGFA,Indo-Russian MRTA to name a few. India,IMO,is afraid to put all eggs in one basket. Moreover,India has an advantage to lay it's hands on the Russian as well as the western platforms. MMRCA is going to be more of a political decision rather than a technical one. The winner would be a strategic partner as well.

I agree. I suspect that the winner of the MRCA contest is going to be as much driven by politics as it is by capability. If India wanted the multirole platform with maximum capability, I'd have to say that the Rafale should easily have come out the winner. The Rafale is a true multirole platform - something that the Typhoon (which was heavily biased towards the air-to-air role) is not. In terms of both range and payload, the Rafale is hard to beat. However, the Rafale is also extremely expensive (because hardly anyone is buying it). And the Indian government may want to cement its relations with the US with a major arms deal - bringing the US contendors back into the fore.
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Old 08-09-2010, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by SpacemanSpiff View Post
why not just buy more Su-30s rather than purchase any Rafales or Eurofighters ? My understanding is that the Su-30 is a far larger aircraft than the Rafale, but nevertheless costs about half of what the Rafale does.
dude.....we are already buying 230 su-30mki....over buying will mean too much depending on one aircraft only....also spare parts problem is may be one of the reason....
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Old 08-09-2010, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by haamimhagolan View Post
Thanks for sharing. An interesting article, if true. I haven't seen anyone else in the press confirm this report, however. I'm not convinced that this seemingly never-ending contest is anywhere close to being closed.
 

I agree. I suspect that the winner of the MRCA contest is going to be as much driven by politics as it is by capability. If India wanted the multirole platform with maximum capability, I'd have to say that the Rafale should easily have come out the winner. The Rafale is a true multirole platform - something that the Typhoon (which was heavily biased towards the air-to-air role)
dude...i said it in the beginning itself....not official but can be selective leak by the IAF....to deter Indian bureaucracy to take advantage.....

Rafale is surely in doubt....the french are trying to give all out help to JF-17,selling subs....which will mean the french will loose out to either doing business with us or with pornis.....
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Old 08-09-2010, 11:05 PM
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India,IMO,is afraid to put all eggs in one basket. Moreover,India has an advantage to lay it's hands on the Russian as well as the western platforms.
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dude.....we are already buying 230 su-30mki....over buying will mean too much depending on one aircraft only....also spare parts problem is may be one of the reason....
Thanks. Got it. You want to diversify your suppliers.

Just to mention, neilay, I know you mean well, but not everyone appreciates being called "dude".
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Old 08-10-2010, 03:47 AM
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dude.....we are already buying 230 su-30mki....over buying will mean too much depending on one aircraft only....also spare parts problem is may be one of the reason....
It's not 230. It's 270.
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Old 08-10-2010, 03:17 PM
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Default Lockheed-Martin Dismisses Rumours, Issues Statement


Just received this statement from the folks at Lockheed-Martin: "Lockheed Martin continues to be impressed with the disciplined acquisition process being followed by the Indian Air Force and Ministry of Defense. Under this process, as described by the Defense Procurement Procedure, the short list will not be decided until an assessment of compliance with the qualitative requirements is completed by the IAF and MoD. Therefore, any speculation about who is a front runner or who will be short listed is premature. What we do know is the F-16IN Super Viper would bring tremendous capabilities now and for the future to the Indian Air Force and would strengthen the strategic partnership between India and the U.S. and between the Indian Air Force and the United States Air
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:27 AM
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Default India plays down reports of MMRCA decision

The official spokesman of the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) has downplayed media reports that France's Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon have emerged as favourites to win India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contest.
Speaking to Jane's on 10 August, Sitanshu Kar said no decisions have been made about the programme following the MoD's receipt of a comprehensive trial report on the six rival fighters competing for the INR420 billion (USD9.1 billion) contract.
Some media outlets in India had earlier reported that the results of the MMRCA technical evaluations, which concluded in mid-2010, had prompted the Indian Air Force (IAF) to recommend to the MoD that the shortlist be narrowed down to just two aircraft: the Rafale and Typhoon.
The other platforms competing for the 126-aircraft tender are Boeing's F/A-18E/F, Lockheed Martin's F-16IN, the Russian United Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35 and Saab's JAS 39 Gripen NG.


http://www.bharatrakshak.com/NEWS/ne...p?newsid=13269
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  #16  
Old 08-12-2010, 04:53 PM
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Default A Big Fat MMRCA Update

Sick of hearsay and rumours? Well, here's some stuff that's confirmed true, authoritative, new, and potentially explosive for contenders in the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. Let me just start by saying that the ball is squarely with the MoD now -- the field evaluation trial report has been submitted, but has not yet been approved by the MoD. There is likely to be a measure of back and forth between South Block and Vayu Bhawan before it is approved and passed on for the next stage. In the meanwhile, chew on this. No rumours here.

Point One, The Indian Air Force won't choose a twin-engine aircraft in the MMRCA, if a single-engine aircraft can "do the job", i.e, is satisfactorily compliant on all 643 test points that each of the six airplanes were tested for during the field evaluation trials (FETs). The IAF is of the view that both single and twin engine platforms have their own advantages, but that it will not discriminate between the two. If all six aircraft are compliant, the cheapest will be selected whether its twin or single-engined.

Point Two, and this is a biggie -- The model being used to gauge cost is not the lifecycle cost (LCC) model as was previously thought. That model has been dumped since the IAF perceives it to be indeterminable (read, ambiguous), and not measured in precisely the same way across the six aircraft being offered. In other words, the MMRCA purchase model will be based on unit flyaway cost of aircraft and financing options -- i.e, not overall cost of ownership. The IAF decided that it would only work with what is "determinable". In other words, no complex formulae on future savings on maintenance and overhaul. Do you see why I used the word bombshell in the post title? :)

Point Three, cost is going to be a big determinant. Out of the six aircraft that are judged compliant, the cheapest will be identified as L1, and will logically be the chosen aircraft.

Point Three-and-a-half, it emerges now that each vendor was extensively briefed on their performance once the trials were over, so they have a comprehensive sense of how they performed -- their function of compliance, if you will -- but they have nothing to compare it with. So unless you account for industrial espionage, none of the vendors know how the others have performed, but know exactly how well or badly their own platform performed during trials.

Point Four, the air force's trial report has been submitted to the MoD, but the latter hasn't approved it yet. The trial report strictly contains a tabulated representation of each contending platform's compliance or otherwise for each of 643 test points. Significantly, the trial report does not quantify the level of compliance of each airplane, but rather leaves this for the MoD to understand. In other words, the trial report has all the data and results, but no recommendations, no merit list, no explicit downselect, no stated eliminations, nothing. Yet, by virtue of the data it presents, everything is implicit. It provides the data. It provides the benchmarks for compliance. The MoD figures out who's in, who's not quite in, who's definitely out. The IAF hasn't put that down. The IAF has submitted a "factual report" -- the rest is upto the MoD. Again, there's been no ranking at any stage.

Point Five, there have been frequent attempts by various players to suggest that some of the non-US contenders will have trouble getting export licenses for subsystems that may be of American origin (like the Gripen's engines, weapons on some of the others etc). Let's lay that to rest for now -- the IAF extracted government-endorsed guarantees from each such contending vendor that there would be no problems in the supply of such equipment, and it was based on this guarantee certificate that the contender was allowed to participate in trials.

Finally, the option exists for the IAF to go for more than 126 aircraft, but a decision has not yet been taken on whether to club that option with the principal purchase. Having said that, chances are that the option will be exercised.
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Old 08-13-2010, 12:56 PM
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Default Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"


Boeing has said it is offering India the "International Super Hornet Roadmap", which it describes as the next evolution of the Block II Super Hornet -- "which increases survivability, situational awareness, and performance for customers". The company says it has been investing in the International Roadmap for the last two years along with the US Navy. Under the programme, says Boeing, if India chooses the Super Hornet as part of the MMRCA, the Indian Air Force will have the option of adding evolutionary technologies to the platform within this decade on an incremental basis starting 2015. Funded by the US Navy and developed by Boeing, the roadmap on offer allows for the planned insertion of maturing technologies over time. Boeing says this would give the IAF flexibility over the years if they want to insert/ integrate the following new technologies:
  • Enhanced Performance Engines
  • Next-generation cockpit
  • Spherical missile laser warning
  • Internal Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST)
  • Conformal fuel tanks (see aircraft in slide)
  • Enclosed weapons pod (see aircraft in slide)
  • Designed-in stealth
  • Future survivability technology that will "make the Block II Super Hornet harder to detect, harder to hit, and harder to kill"
According to a note that Boeing sent over, "While India is getting Block II of the Super Hornet, the International Super Hornet roadmap gives India the choice of considerable growth potential. India will be able to participate as an International Super Hornet Roadmap customer, if desired, and could potentially enhance future Indian Super Hornets. The design and growth of the Super Hornet has been done keeping a 40 year life span during which the aircraft remains combat proven."
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Old 08-13-2010, 06:15 PM
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As a patriotic American (with two family members who work for Boeing) I would naturally like to see India choose the Super Hornet. But I have to admit, these are all excellent aircraft.
I wonder why France hasn't been able to find any export customers for the Rafale?
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Old 08-14-2010, 11:42 AM
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I wonder why France hasn't been able to find any export customers for the Rafale?
rafale is way too expensive aircraft....and all countries with lots of money[except India] have their own jets to offer so.....
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Old 08-14-2010, 12:18 PM
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Default Lockheed Pipes In: F-16IN Has Great Growth Prospects


The American teens are working overtime to battle deep perceptions that their wares -- the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-16IN Super Viper -- are essentially old aircraft (i.e. not modern) with a few new systems bunged in, and are basically platforms in the twilight of their operational lives, being replaced as they are with new assets by US forces. Boeing tried dealing with that perception a few days ago when it revealed that India was being offered something called the International Roadmap as part of the MMRCA competition. Arch-rival Lockheed-Martin articulated something similar recently, which they sent over. Posting it in full:

"While the Super Viper is a new design just for India, it is also the starting point for future growth. The F-16 has a well documented history of continuous evolution in capability. This is very important since the F-16IN is inherently designed for a long service life (in excess of 6500 flight hours). During this service life the desire will likely arise for significant upgradation to add capability for expanded mission roles, improved combat capability, and reduced operating costs. There are two primary enablers to this evolution: technology advancements and a proactive upgradation strategy.

Technology Advancements. The Super Viper is on the cutting edge of fighter aircraft technology with its 5th gen-based AESA radar, fiber optics data network, large flat panel color displays and the latest precision weapons. Starting now the Super Viper has inherent growth capacity due to ample unused space and large processing reserves. Nevertheless, emerging technologies will enable even greater capability. The history of technology advancement, especially for digital systems, shows that this added capability comes in increasingly smaller packages with lower power requirements. (Today’s mobile phone includes web browsing, games, and video in a smaller size than yesterday’s voice-only device.) The F-16 has demonstrated this many times across seven major block changes. This includes five generations of core avionics, five radar versions, ten different EW suites, and dozens of new weapons without changing the aircraft structure or size.
To take advantage of these new technologies the Super Viper has a growth-oriented architecture for adding new systems and capabilities. Maximum use has been made of commercial standards and technology such as processing, software and networking.

Upgradation Strategy. The U.S. Air Force along with the European operators of the F-16 have been jointly executing a long term continuous upgradation strategy since the beginning of the F-16 program. As part of the overall sustainment philosophy, this strategy recognizes the need for continuous improvement and it defines a step-wise approach to keeping the F-16 on the forefront of war fighting capability. There are F-16s flying today in the U.S. and in Europe that are 30 years old but they have the same systems and capabilities as a new Block 50 F-16.
At the heart of the strategy is a long term capability improvement roadmap which is synchronized with technology-driven improvements in weapons, sensors, displays, and computing. These key technology areas have their own improvement roadmaps which dovetail with the aircraft capability improvement roadmap. The roadmap is implemented through a series of software releases and hardware updates. For the U.S. and European Air Forces there is typically a major software release each 18 months. This allows for balance between rapid fielding of new capability and time required to assimilate the new capabilities into operational use. Major hardware updates are likewise spaced out to optimize fleet management while aircraft are being inducted into the modification program.

In summary, the growth potential for the Super Viper is much more than just the currently available spare capacity. Combining the latest technologies with a long term continuous upgradation strategy will keep the F-16IN relevant from the day it is first inducted until it is finally retired from service.
"
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